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How long has the ECML had 14 HST's?

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ryan125hst

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Following the final HST's leaving London Paddington last night and also travelling on a HST from York to Retford myself yesterday, I have been looking into the history of the HST sets. According to the 125 Group, 27 were ordered for the Western Region and 32 for the East Coast Mainline initially. Later orders saw 14 more sets to be used for the West of England and 18 for Cross Country use. A final four were then ordered for the ECML.

The ECML sets were then moved around following the electrification of the ECML in the late 80's. The information on 125 Group's site says there were 34 HST sets allocated to East Coast spread between Bounds Green, Neville Hill, Heaton and Craigentinny at the time of this electrification, but 25 were moved away to enhance Cross Country services, replace loco hauled trains on the Euston to Holyhead services and increase capacity on the Great Western Main Line. This would have left 9 HST sets which is what I seem to remember from the later stages of GNER days when I first got into railways.

Their page on Midland Mainline then mentions that GNER gained a further two sets from May 2007 when a second London to Leeds service was added, thereby bringing the total to 11 HST sets. However, LNER now have 14 sets as well as a 15th set, NL65, that is based at Neville Hill and was, until Thursday, used on the Hull Executive and a return to Leeds every day. Both this and EC64 (which I travelled on yesterday) have the original IC70 seats with an LNER (well, carried out by Virgin) interior, having been transferred from East Midlands Trains after the refurbishment to "Mallard" standard occurred at the end of the last decade.

My question is, when did the other two HST sets arrive and where did they come from? They must have arrived at some time between the final months of GNER and East Coast taking over as this was the period that the HST's went through the refurbishment program. Presumably they were ex Cross Country or Midland Mainline sets?
 
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43096

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Following the final HST's leaving London Paddington last night and also travelling on a HST from York to Retford myself yesterday, I have been looking into the history of the HST sets. According to the 125 Group, 27 were ordered for the Western Region and 32 for the East Coast Mainline initially. Later orders saw 14 more sets to be used for the West of England and 18 for Cross Country use. A final four were then ordered for the ECML.

The ECML sets were then moved around following the electrification of the ECML in the late 80's. The information on 125 Group's site says there were 34 HST sets allocated to East Coast spread between Bounds Green, Neville Hill, Heaton and Craigentinny at the time of this electrification, but 25 were moved away to enhance Cross Country services, replace loco hauled trains on the Euston to Holyhead services and increase capacity on the Great Western Main Line. This would have left 9 HST sets which is what I seem to remember from the later stages of GNER days when I first got into railways.

Their page on Midland Mainline then mentions that GNER gained a further two sets from May 2007 when a second London to Leeds service was added, thereby bringing the total to 11 HST sets. However, LNER now have 14 sets as well as a 15th set, NL65, that is based at Neville Hill and was, until Thursday, used on the Hull Executive and a return to Leeds every day. Both this and EC64 (which I travelled on yesterday) have the original IC70 seats with an LNER (well, carried out by Virgin) interior, having been transferred from East Midlands Trains after the refurbishment to "Mallard" standard occurred at the end of the last decade.

My question is, when did the other two HST sets arrive and where did they come from? They must have arrived at some time between the final months of GNER and East Coast taking over as this was the period that the HST's went through the refurbishment program. Presumably they were ex Cross Country or Midland Mainline sets?
Both EC64 and NL65 are former EMT sets. EC64 transferred with power cars 43072/074 (as were) in May 2011; NL65 transferred (initially on sub-lease) in February 2015.
 

cjmillsnun

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Both EC64 and NL65 are former EMT sets. EC64 transferred with power cars 43072/074 (as were) in May 2011; NL65 transferred (initially on sub-lease) in February 2015.

I don't think it's EC64 and NL65 that the OP refers to.

We had a jump from 11 to 15 sets. EC64 and NL65 the OP is aware of, but there are two others that transferred in during during either NXEC or EC days that he's not sure about.
 

swt_passenger

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2 arrived in 2007 according to this, confirming the above theory:
GNER has moved swiftly to secure the two extra trains required to help introduce 12 additional weekday services between Yorkshire, the East Midlands and London from May.

The two diesel high speed trains (HSTs) will be given a major makeover during the next two years as part of an investment package of £20m.

The HSTs will be painted in GNER’s blue and red livery, will be fully overhauled and undergo extensive reliability modifications, and have wireless internet installed in time for entering service in May.

Then, during the course of the following two years, they will have new cleaner, greener engines installed and a major interior revamp, which will include new seats, carpets and lighting.
http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...ators-contracts/gner-secures-two-extra-trains
 

43074

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The other two were from Midland Mainline and arrived in 2007 to provide the additional stock required for the half hourly service to Leeds. Power cars 43051/053/056/057 and 077 transferred with them, although 053 & 056 later moved to FGW. They were replaced by 9-car 222s at MML.
 

cjmillsnun

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Again the numbers aren't adding up.

GNER originally had 9 (according to the OP), received 2 in May '07 (for the half hourly Leeds services and are the two that 43074 and swt_passenger mention), making 11. And now there are 15 (EC64 and NL65 we know about). So when did the other 2 come in?
 

43074

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Again the numbers aren't adding up.

GNER originally had 9 (according to the OP), received 2 in May '07 (for the half hourly Leeds services and are the two that 43074 and swt_passenger mention), making 11. And now there are 15 (EC64 and NL65 we know about). So when did the other 2 come in?

The others were from Virgin Cross Country when the original 9 were lengthened to 9-cars and the Mallard Mk4 refurbishment was ongoing. Around 2003/2004 IIRC.
 

ryan125hst

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The others were from Virgin Cross Country when the original 9 were lengthened to 9-cars and the Mallard Mk4 refurbishment was ongoing. Around 2003/2004 IIRC.

Oh right, GNER had eleven HST's for longer than I thought then.

Thank you for your responses all :)
 

JonathanH

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Nine HSTs was clearly a low point on the East Coast route - ISTR that Intercity East Coast lost two HSTs to Great Western in the mid 90s, later than the post-electrification changes when it pulled out of Cleethorpes and Middlesbrough? The two with TGS coaches 44067 and 44083.

Is there a book with the full reorganisation history of the HST fleet?
 

ryan125hst

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Funny you should mention that- I ordered that book, and pre-ordered the Haynes Manual, earlier today :p
 

ryan125hst

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Apologies for posting on my old thread, but I have been looking into this time period of GNER's franchise and it's odd that there isn't really lots said about the HST's I asked about.

The book 43096 mentioned about mentions the sets that moved over from Midland Mainline in 2007, but doesn't seem to mention those that moved over in 2003/4. It does mention the 10 extra trailers being acquired to make all their HST's 9 coaches, a hint that they had a 10th set at that point. I only had a skim through looking for information last night, but I doubt it's buried anywhere else than the places I looked. It seems to focus more on power cars though, but checking out the numbers may confirm things.

Using the Wayback Machine, I found an old GNER press release from 19th December 2003 that talks about adding a ninth car to all 10 sets, but again, nothing about adding more HST's: http://web.archive.org/web/20040114193406fw_/http://www.gner.co.uk/pages/press/189.htm

www.gner.co.uk said:
The addition of the extra Mark III coaches will increase the number of coaches from 8 to 9 in each train. Each coach will add 60 extra seats, including 2 spaces for wheelchairs and, for the first time on the HST fleet, a wheelchair accessible toilet.


In capacity terms, the additional coaches are the equivalent of adding a whole extra train to GNER’s current fleet of 10 HST 125 trains. GNER is leasing the 10 extra coaches from Angel Trains.

The Junction gives a better insight. An archived page from May 2004 shows formations of 10 HST's of which three have 9 coaches: http://web.archive.org/web/20040528021411/http://www.thejunction.org.uk/form_gner_hst.shtml

Moving on to August of the same year, there are still 10 HST's but 6 are shown as having 9 coaches. I thought it was coach G that was added and gained a wheelchair accessible toilet at this point, but it is shown as coach E here? http://web.archive.org/web/20040830032740/http://www.thejunction.org.uk:80/form_gner_hst.shtml

By October, an 11th HST has arrived and all but one has 9 coaches (although another is missing coach G). http://web.archive.org/web/20041021105506/http://www.thejunction.org.uk:80/form_gner_hst.shtml

Jumping forward to the next available archived page, October 2006, and there are now 13 HST's. http://web.archive.org/web/20061012220158/http://www.thejunction.org.uk/form_gner_hst.shtml

It also says the following;

www.thejunction.org.uk said:
Set EC52 consists of unrefurbished ex-Virgin XC coaching stock.
Set EC62 consists of 'refreshed' ex-Midland Mainline 'Operation RIO' stock.

So this is clearly the ex MML stock arriving.

Incidentally, I remember travelling from Retford to Doncaster with my Mum around this time and going on a HST with an ex MML or Virgin interior - it wasn't Mallard or the GNER brown for certain.

Were the sets transferred in 2003/4 refurbished into GNER's style or did they remain unaltered until the Mallard refurbishments?
 
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4REP

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The reason for more HST sets to 14 were to replace the 3 eurostar sets when GNER
no longer wanted them so they were replaced by 3 HST sets back in December 2005 change
 

ryan125hst

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The reason for more HST sets to 14 were to replace the 3 eurostar sets when GNER
no longer wanted them so they were replaced by 3 HST sets back in December 2005 change

The White Rose sets were used to cover for the refurbishment of the Class 91 overhaul and Mark 4 coaches Project Mallard refurbishment (at least that's what I have always understood to be the case). I'm not sure what timetable changes came in in 2003/04 to require two ex Virgin Cross Country sets to be added. It seems to be these two sets, at the same time as the existing HST sets were lengthened from 8 to 9 coaches that don't seem to be mentioned that often.
 

43096

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The White Rose sets were used to cover for the refurbishment of the Class 91 overhaul and Mark 4 coaches Project Mallard refurbishment (at least that's what I have always understood to be the case). I'm not sure what timetable changes came in in 2003/04 to require two ex Virgin Cross Country sets to be added. It seems to be these two sets, at the same time as the existing HST sets were lengthened from 8 to 9 coaches that don't seem to be mentioned that often.
The GNER 373s were for additional services from what I remember, initially to York, later Leeds.

The additional two HSTs in 2003 (one in summer 2003, one twelve months later) were to provide cover for the Mark 4 Mallard programme initially (first set, ex-West Coast, power cars 43006/8) and then to speed the Mallard programme up to allow an extra Mark 4 set to be stopped (second set, ex-CrossCountry, power cars 43099/102). Once Mark 4 Mallard was completed the two extra HSTs allowed the hired in Eurostars to be dispensed with.
 

ryan125hst

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Thanks for that 43096, that makes sense. :)

One thing no one has answered yet is this:

Incidentally, I remember travelling from Retford to Doncaster with my Mum around this time and going on a HST with an ex MML or Virgin interior - it wasn't Mallard or the GNER brown for certain.

Were the sets transferred in 2003/4 refurbished into GNER's style or did they remain unaltered until the Mallard refurbishments?

The Mallard refurbishments on the HST weren't until a few years after the additional sets and coaches arrived. They must have refurbished them to GNER standards as the 9th coaches arrived at a similar time and I don't remember seeing one of the coaches having a different interior.
 

43096

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Thanks for that 43096, that makes sense. :)

One thing no one has answered yet is this:



The Mallard refurbishments on the HST weren't until a few years after the additional sets and coaches arrived. They must have refurbished them to GNER standards as the 9th coaches arrived at a similar time and I don't remember seeing one of the coaches having a different interior.
The 10th set which arrived in 2003 was refurbished in the brown style when it arrived as were the 10 extra trailers to make the fleet 9 car sets. Those were the last “brown” refurbs, the next set was ex-XC and definitely ran with the XC interior. I think there was a swap of sets at some point and the XC set was replaced by a former Project Rio set. Memory is getting hazy, though!
 

ryan125hst

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The 10th set which arrived in 2003 was refurbished in the brown style when it arrived as were the 10 extra trailers to make the fleet 9 car sets. Those were the last “brown” refurbs, the next set was ex-XC and definitely ran with the XC interior. I think there was a swap of sets at some point and the XC set was replaced by a former Project Rio set. Memory is getting hazy, though!

That would make a lot of sense. It would mean the set I have mentioned was either the 11th (ex XC) set (or it's replacement) or one of the two Midland Mainline sets that joined in 2007 which wouldn't have been refurbished until the Mallard refurbishment.
 

43074

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Apologies for posting on my old thread, but I have been looking into this time period of GNER's franchise and it's odd that there isn't really lots said about the HST's I asked about.

The book 43096 mentioned about mentions the sets that moved over from Midland Mainline in 2007, but doesn't seem to mention those that moved over in 2003/4. It does mention the 10 extra trailers being acquired to make all their HST's 9 coaches, a hint that they had a 10th set at that point. I only had a skim through looking for information last night, but I doubt it's buried anywhere else than the places I looked. It seems to focus more on power cars though, but checking out the numbers may confirm things.
...
Jumping forward to the next available archived page, October 2006, and there are now 13 HST's. http://web.archive.org/web/20061012220158/http://www.thejunction.org.uk/form_gner_hst.shtml

It also says the following;



So this is clearly the ex MML stock arriving.

Incidentally, I remember travelling from Retford to Doncaster with my Mum around this time and going on a HST with an ex MML or Virgin interior - it wasn't Mallard or the GNER brown for certain.

Were the sets transferred in 2003/4 refurbished into GNER's style or did they remain unaltered until the Mallard refurbishments?

That October 2006 link from the junction actually double counts quite a few vehicles - e.g. Power car 43114 is mentioned no less than three times. At that time they definitely had 11 sets, not 13, as the two from MML arrived in early 2007, and none of the power cars which transferred then are mentioned in the table (which I listed upthread).

As it states both sets EC52 and EC61 were refreshed (which being GNER you would've thought included new moquette) that would imply the green set you travelled on was one of the two MML sets which transferred in 2007 for the Leeds services.

I think the full breakdown was something like
EC51/EC53 - EC60: original 9 former ICEC sets after losing 2 in 1992 when Cleethorpes and Hull services were reduced
EC52: ex Virgin West Coast set from 2003 to cover Mallard refurbishments, also additional 10 ex XC vehicles for lengthening to 9 cars
EC61: ex Rio set from 2004 following GNERs decision to have a 3rd Mark 4 set out of service for Mallard refresh at any one time
EC62 & EC63 - ex MML sets for extra Leeds trains from 2007
EC64 - ex EMT set which transferred to East Coast in 2012
NL65 - 2+8 ex EMT set from 2015
 

43096

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That October 2006 link from the junction actually double counts quite a few vehicles - e.g. Power car 43114 is mentioned no less than three times. At that time they definitely had 11 sets, not 13, as the two from MML arrived in early 2007, and none of the power cars which transferred then are mentioned in the table (which I listed upthread).

As it states both sets EC52 and EC61 were refreshed (which being GNER you would've thought included new moquette) that would imply the green set you travelled on was one of the two MML sets which transferred in 2007 for the Leeds services.

I think the full breakdown was something like
EC51/EC53 - EC60: original 9 former ICEC sets after losing 2 in 1992 when Cleethorpes and Hull services were reduced
EC52: ex Virgin West Coast set from 2003 to cover Mallard refurbishments, also additional 10 ex XC vehicles for lengthening to 9 cars
EC61: ex Rio set from 2004 following GNERs decision to have a 3rd Mark 4 set out of service for Mallard refresh at any one time
EC62 & EC63 - ex MML sets for extra Leeds trains from 2007
EC64 - ex EMT set which transferred to East Coast in 2012
NL65 - 2+8 ex EMT set from 2015
Correct, except the inherited sets were EC51-59. EC60 was the first additional set, ex-West Coast.

The original 9 got replacement seat covers (and maybe carpet) in the brown scheme at some stage as GNER had stupidly used flat cloth which wears out more quickly - that may be the work on EC52 referred to?
 

ryan125hst

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That October 2006 link from the junction actually double counts quite a few vehicles - e.g. Power car 43114 is mentioned no less than three times. At that time they definitely had 11 sets, not 13, as the two from MML arrived in early 2007, and none of the power cars which transferred then are mentioned in the table (which I listed upthread).

As it states both sets EC52 and EC61 were refreshed (which being GNER you would've thought included new moquette) that would imply the green set you travelled on was one of the two MML sets which transferred in 2007 for the Leeds services.

I think the full breakdown was something like
EC51/EC53 - EC60: original 9 former ICEC sets after losing 2 in 1992 when Cleethorpes and Hull services were reduced
EC52: ex Virgin West Coast set from 2003 to cover Mallard refurbishments, also additional 10 ex XC vehicles for lengthening to 9 cars
EC61: ex Rio set from 2004 following GNERs decision to have a 3rd Mark 4 set out of service for Mallard refresh at any one time
EC62 & EC63 - ex MML sets for extra Leeds trains from 2007
EC64 - ex EMT set which transferred to East Coast in 2012
NL65 - 2+8 ex EMT set from 2015

Thank you for the comprehensive information 43074. I remember the days of GNER and the GNER HST interior but was too young to pay attention to these details at the time (I think I was 12 when GNER ended!) and there doesn't seem to be that much information online so I am grateful for these details.

Correct, except the inherited sets were EC51-59. EC60 was the first additional set, ex-West Coast.

The original 9 got replacement seat covers (and maybe carpet) in the brown scheme at some stage as GNER had stupidly used flat cloth which wears out more quickly - that may be the work on EC52 referred to?

It would make sense for the additional set numbers to be added to the end of the series as additional sets arrived. Was there a reason behind the EC51 onwards numbering? EC stands for Edinburgh Craigentinny I'm guessing, but it's odd they started the numbering at set 51.
 

43096

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It would make sense for the additional set numbers to be added to the end of the series as additional sets arrived. Was there a reason behind the EC51 onwards numbering? EC stands for Edinburgh Craigentinny I'm guessing, but it's odd they started the numbering at set 51.
Mark 4 sets were BN01-30, so possibly to eliminate any confusion if someone referred to “set 5” or whatever.
 

DB

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Wasn't there also a previous EC64? As I recall it was taken on during the Mallard refurbishments to provide cover, and when they were complete was transferred to FGW (along with 43053/56). Don't recall what the interior was - when FGW got it they did their standard refurb.

Incientally, at the GNER brown survived into the NEXC era as the refurbishments were ongoing at the time. I seem to recall that EC60 was the last one, and was in service for a while with a brown interior and the interim 'white stripe' livery on the outside.
 
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