How long should customers retain their ticket for, after they have alighted from the train?

[PeterC]

It's partly an "age thing", isn't it, not because we change with age but because our experiences differed when we were younger than now.

I always keep my ticket, and they often end up being used as bookmarks.

But when I started travelling regularly by train, in 1970, I was accustomed to having my ticket checked at my arrival station, no matter what time it was, certainly during the late evening rush hour, at Poynton, Prestbury and (less unsurprisingly) Macclesfield. The staff on duty in the booking office came out when the train arrived and checked tickets.

So I got into a good habit from then, I guess. The idea that I would not hang on to my ticket today wouldn't occur to me. It might end up in my pocket or in the bin back at home.

But nowadays it's extremely unusual to have a ticket checked in the afternoon, let alone evening, arriving at Wilmslow. So I can see why people have got into the habit of discarding them sooner than they probably should.

Same here, from my schooldays and throughout my working life all my train travel has been on routes where tickets were checked / collected when leaving the station. It would never occur to me to dispose of a ticket before going "landside".

 

[plugwash]

It doesn't help that the railway is very inconsistent on how stations are run.

Some stations have a clear line between "railside" and "landside" with obvious barriers (that may sometimes be left open) at all crossings between the two.

Some stations have no barrier infrastructure at all but still have manual ticket checks sometimes.

Some stations have half-assed barrier arrangements (often as a result of retrofitting barriers to a station that was never designed to have them) where depending on which platform your train uses and which route through the station you take you may or may not encounter a barrier on the way to your train.

Some stations have announcments that you should keep your ticket until you have left the station premisis, others have barriers that capture your ticket.

 

[Ianno87]

It doesn't help that the railway is very inconsistent on how stations are run.

Some stations have a clear line between "railside" and "landside" with obvious barriers (that may sometimes be left open) at all crossings between the two.

Some stations have no barrier infrastructure at all but still have manual ticket checks sometimes.

Some stations have half-assed barrier arrangements (often as a result of retrofitting barriers to a station that was never designed to have them) where depending on which platform your train uses and which route through the station you take you may or may not encounter a barrier on the way to your train.

Some stations have announcments that you should keep your ticket until you have left the station premisis, others have barriers that capture your ticket.

Train Managers will often announce "please keep hold of your ticket as barriers may be in operation" when you're arriving at the likes of Birmingham New Street.

 

[SteveM70]

Train Managers will often announce "please keep hold of your ticket as barriers may be in operation" when you're arriving at the likes of Birmingham New Street.

Exactly! And if your ticket isn’t one of the types that’s retained by the machine, nobody in their right mind would think to keep their ticket after they’d passed the specific area they were told to keep it for

 

[AM9]

Exactly! And if your ticket isn’t one of the types that’s retained by the machine, nobody in their right mind would think to keep their ticket after they’d passed the specific area they were told to keep it for

Apart from all those who didn't struggle to carry the weight of a small piece of paper/card in their pocket/wallet until they got home. That's why most people haven't had issues like this with being unable to produce a ticket even when through that barrier. A ticket weighs less than a tissue.

 

[SteveM70]

Apart from all those who didn't struggle to carry the weight of a small piece of paper/card in their pocket/wallet until they got home. That's why most people haven't had issues like this with being unable to produce a ticket even when through that barrier. A ticket weighs less than a tissue.

That’s not my point in the slightest. I’m just pointing out that if a passenger is told by a member of staff that there’s a specific reason they need to keep their ticket, and having negotiated that specific reason successfully it’s hardly surprising if the passenger then gets rid of the ticket.

 

[Ianno87]

Analogy with this would be supermarket self-service tills that offer the "Do you want a receipt?" option.

I generally select 'No' unless I'm purchasing something of value (e.g. alcohol, razor blades, etc.). No supermarket security person is going to chase you out of the store to check you paid for your carton of apple juice!

 

[VauxhallandI]

I nearly always pay b card at the supermarket so if they want to see the full transaction amount they can deduct the cost of the bits in my bag and see it all adds up.

 

[AM9]

Analogy with this would be supermarket self-service tills that offer the "Do you want a receipt?" option.

I generally select 'No' unless I'm purchasing something of value (e.g. alcohol, razor blades, etc.). No supermarket security person is going to chase you out of the store to check you paid for your carton of apple juice!

That isn't an complete analgy although there are some similarities:

1) There's no written requirement that requires shoppers to carry a receipt when leaving the store, (and in recent times, some shops are actively discouraging shoppers to take one anyway).​

2) The conditions of travel on the railway expressly require passengers to present a ticket or authority to travel when asked by an authorised member of staff. That is what passengers buy into when purchasing the ticket.​

3) Supermarket security staff are there to prevent shoplifters exiting the store when staff have a suspicion of such activities. It used to be the task of shop employees/owners but in modern times, the element of safety has resulted in contracting 'specialists' for that rolse at least to assist.​

4) In respect of 2) above, if a person has managed to avoid being asked to show a ticket (not necessarily illegal), but following observation, there is a suspicion that they don't have the necessary authority to travel, stopping them in the environs of the station that they have just exited would have the same justification as staff/security persons stopping a suspected shoplifter outside a shop, i.e both are part of a theft prevention activity. In a large station, it is possible that BTP might be available to add weight to what otherwise would rely on a citizen's arrest.​

Aside from the above, apart from a lack of education or a desire to dispose of incriminating evidence, (i.e. the ticket wasn't authority for the full journey undertaken, as might be the case for 'doughnutting'), nobody here has offered any reason why carrying a small piece of paper/card even for a few minutes is so difficult. Arguments about (conflicting) notices on bins, the bins locations and made-up definitions of an RPO's jurisdiction might promote their social media status in their own minds, but wouldn't help much in an actual confrontation, - especially as regards to the' attitude test' which many insiders here say can go a long way towards an outcome.

 

[Hadders]

As I said further upthread comparisons with supermarkets are unhelpful, the law is completely different.

A supermarket security guard cannot stop someone on suspicion of theft. You are under absolutely no legal obligation to show them a receipt.

 

[father_jack]

Wasn't there a desperate gripper called Granville years ago who checked tickets in a chippy once ?!!!

 

[alistairlees]

As I said further upthread comparisons with supermarkets are unhelpful, the law is completely different.

A supermarket security guard cannot stop someone on suspicion of theft. You are under absolutely no legal obligation to show them a receipt.

Agreed. It really is quite straightforward as explained earlier.

 

[AM9]

Agreed. It really is quite straightforward as explained earlier.

Yet nobody can explain why they can't just keep tickets for a few minutes longer, - the lead post on this thread implies that keeping a ticket is sound advice to avoid problems and that there is an increasing attitude that there isn't any need to. The thread title is "How long should customers retain their ticket for, after they have alighted from the train?", all discussion about the case in the other thread is irrelevant.
Tickets are pretty small things and weigh virtually nothing - so they can't be so heavy that anybody needs to dump that dead weight as soon as possible. If there was a 50p refund for the used ticket, most here would carry them around forever until they had their money, so why risk the possibility of some over-zealous RPO even trying to make an issue? This is a potential problem that some are making for themselves.

 

[WesternLancer]

Yet nobody can explain why they can't just keep tickets for a few minutes longer, - the lead post on this thread implies that keeping a ticket is sound advice to avoid problems and that there is an increasing attitude that there isn't any need to. The thread title is "How long should customers retain their ticket for, after they have alighted from the train?", all discussion about the case in the other thread is irrelevant.
Tickets are pretty small things and weigh virtually nothing - so they can't be so heavy that anybody needs to dump that dead weight as soon as possible. If there was a 50p refund for the used ticket, most here would carry them around forever until they had their money, so why risk the possibility of some over-zealous RPO even trying to make an issue? This is a potential problem that some are making for themselves.

Clearly there can be no reason, it's just force of habit for some people to ditch them when they think not needed (the number of discarded tickets one finds on trains illustrates the point) - also re-enforced by many people's public transport habits being formed by bus travel where you are never asked for your ticket once you have passed the driver - maybe different in London (or even flights - you don't need ticket to get off a flight - and there will be some people who probably use a plane a few times a year and more often than they ever use a train), once they reach the end of their journey and are stepping onto the platform it is inconceivable to some people that they will then be asked for a ticket.

Loads of rail practices have contributed to this of course, over the years, not least the introduction of unstaffed stations, open stations etc.

I've also been with overseas friends on eg the London Underground and they are taken aback that you need your ticket to exit the system, leading me to assume that a large number of metro systems in other countries are gated entry but ungated exit.

Obv it makes sense to keep you ticket - but for whatever reason some people don't and never will unless things subsequently go wrong.

The original thread was caused by the problem that arose when the poster thought he had appealed but had not understood how to appeal, and then made the error of pleading guilty in the hope that would simplify the situation he found himself in.

 

[AM9]

Clearly there can be no reason, it's just force of habit for some people to ditch them when they think not needed (the number of discarded tickets one finds on trains illustrates the point) - also re-enforced by many people's public transport habits being formed by bus travel where you are never asked for your ticket once you have passed the driver - maybe different in London (or even flights - you don't need ticket to get off a flight - and there will be some people who probably use a plane a few times a year and more often than they ever use a train), once they reach the end of their journey and are stepping onto the platform it is inconceivable to some people that they will then be asked for a ticket. ...

Thanks for the first sensible answer. I genuinely can't understand this desperation a) to get rid of such a small item and b) an equal determination to justify such an practice. It really is in an individual's interest just to hang onto it for a little bit longer. I routinely clear pockets out after a day's travelling or holiday (including overseas). I always hang on to air travel tickets at least until I have unpacked and sometimes until after I have registered any air mile points. Brissie Girl in post #1 seems to think it is a generational thing.

... Loads of rail practices have contributed to this of course, over the years, not least the introduction of unstaffed stations, open stations etc.

I've also been with overseas friends on eg the London Underground and they are taken aback that you need your ticket to exit the system, leading me to assume that a large number of metro systems in other countries are gated entry but ungated exit.

Obv it makes sense to keep you ticket - but for whatever reason some people don't and never will unless things subsequently go wrong. ...

That's what I find so hard to understand - especially in a forum dedicated to problems with railway initiated prosecutions on ticketing issues. The obvious good advice here seems to have been drowned in a frenzy of cricism of inconsistency by TOCs.

The original thread was caused by the problem that arose when the poster thought he had appealed but had not understood how to appeal, and then made the error of pleading guilty in the hope that would simplify the situation he found himself in.

Yes, and a mess that the OP has got into by procrastinating over the legal process when they could have helped themself by paying attention to the communications that the process generates.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for the first sensible answer. I genuinely can't understand this desperation a) to get rid of such a small item and b) an equal determination to justify such an practice. It really is in an individual's interest just to hang onto it for a little bit longer. I routinely clear pockets out after a day's travelling or holiday (including overseas). I always hang on to air travel tickets at least until I have unpacked and sometimes until after I have registered any air mile points. Brissie Girl in post #1 seems to think it is a generational thing.


That's what I find so hard to understand - especially in a forum dedicated to problems with railway initiated prosecutions on ticketing issues. The obvious good advice here seems to have been drowned in a frenzy of cricism of inconsistency by TOCs.


Yes, and a mess that the OP has got into by procrastinating over the legal process when they could have helped themself by paying attention to the communications that the process generates.

Agree with all that
I think there can be an element of generational thinking about this (although hard to tell for sure) - the sense that 'if it's not on your phone it's not a real thing' - mind you a ticket on a phone would presumably remain available for inspection. I think there is also a strange way in which (some of course) younger people are 'protected' more than in previous generations by the actions of their parents (what I am told is called 'helicopter parents' hovering above them to help solve every problem they face rather then child learning things for themselves, sometimes the hard way).

For example I was taken aback to find out a few years ago that in the case of one of my nephews they had never bought their own train ticket to and from university (or anywhere else I assume) as their mum was booking tickets for said nephew on every occasion they needed to travel. Thus they had no idea about a ticket, it's validity or anything else to do with it apart from what their mum told them I suppose!

Of course that is a generalisation, but I do have a sense of it.

 

[VauxhallandI]

That’s not my point in the slightest. I’m just pointing out that if a passenger is told by a member of staff that there’s a specific reason they need to keep their ticket, and having negotiated that specific reason successfully it’s hardly surprising if the passenger then gets rid of the ticket.

I agree, I think both the logical part of my brain and the stubborn part of my brain says:

I needed the ticket to get through your barrier, I needed it on the train in case there was a check and I needed it to get out the other end. You’ve had your chance and in some occasions you’ve “checked it” three times now you can do one.

 

[Dgss1]

Yet nobody can explain why they can't just keep tickets for a few minutes longer

Someone already said barriers swallow tickets but you ignored that

 

[Wallsendmag]

Someone already said barriers swallow tickets but you ignored that

If gates are set to retain tickets then the staff will be aware of that I would have thought. The requirement to have a valid ticket would end at that point obviously. We've never seen the point of setting our gates up that way as it just creates work and complicated Delay Repay claims.

 

[AM9]

Someone already said barriers swallow tickets but you ignored that

You do know that the discussion is about passengers voluntarily discarding their tickets, - you clearly ignored that for whatever reason.