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How long should customers retain their ticket for, after they have alighted from the train?

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Baxenden Bank

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I'd suggest that for any station with either gateline or any other sort of ticket check, the area beyond that point is in reality a compulsory ticket area. Try getting past it without either a travel ticket or a platform ticket and see how far you get.
I got as far as the toilets, no problems. Just asked nicely if I could be allowed through the barriers to use the facilities. Normally one asks to be let out of the barriers to use facilities (or have a smoke).

I would suggest that you must keep your ticket until your journey is complete, which to me means that you leave finally railway premises (ie land ownership, not station barrier or building, it may be the end of the station approach road) having got off the last train of your trip. Previous threads have said that the risk (of apprehension/prosecution) diminished 'over distance and time', ie if in Tesco, three days later, even if the RPI recognises you, he really can't be expecting you to still have your ticket, nor to rely on your lack of ticket at that point for a successful prosecution.
 

westv

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A thread devoted to how long to keep your ticket?! This forum certainly covers a wide range of questions. :D
 

WesternLancer

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A thread devoted to how long to keep your ticket?! This forum certainly covers a wide range of questions. :D
well, it did spin off from a rather interesting case of a poor passenger who has ended up, IIRC, with a criminal conviction + hefty fine for throwing his £2.50 ticket away as he stepped off the train...
 

sheff1

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I would suggest that you must keep your ticket until your journey is complete, which to me means that you leave finally railway premises (ie land ownership, not station barrier or building, it may be the end of the station approach road) having got off the last train of your trip.

If I get off a train and go straight into somewhere like the Sheffield Tap via the platform entrance my rail journey is complete. I may remain on railway premises for a couple more hours. I would be interested to see where it is mandated that I "must" keep my ticket once I have left the platform and entered the pub. On-station bars, cafes, shops etc exist at many other places.
 

MikeWh

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Best advice I got given by an RPI was to keep your tickets on you until you have exited the station and some distance away.
Sorry, that is completely rubbish advice. How far is some distance? Does it depend on the station? If 200m is recommended, for example, then that would imply that some people would have to keep tickets while in their house, and only dispose of them when they intended going more than 200m from their house without using a train. There are at least 6 properties opposite Crayford station within 200m of the entrance.
 

Rich McLean

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Sorry, that is completely rubbish advice. How far is some distance? Does it depend on the station? If 200m is recommended, for example, then that would imply that some people would have to keep tickets while in their house, and only dispose of them when they intended going more than 200m from their house without using a train. There are at least 6 properties opposite Crayford station within 200m of the entrance.

I think what he meant was don't throw your ticket in the bin just outside the station entrance, wait till you are at home, work, or in town shopping for example. I have heard of RPIs collaring people outside of stations in the past who have been watched.
 

Mcr Warrior

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I think what he meant was don't throw your ticket in the bin just outside the station entrance, wait till you are at home, work, or in town shopping for example. I have heard of RPIs collaring people outside of stations in the past who have been watched.
That's going to be awkward *if* RPI staff are specifically looking out for passengers seen to be discarding their rail ticket(s) into a litter bin on exiting the platform / compulsory ticket area.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think what he meant was don't throw your ticket in the bin just outside the station entrance, wait till you are at home, work, or in town shopping for example. I have heard of RPIs collaring people outside of stations in the past who have been watched.

Once I have actually left railway premises an RPI would not have any legal basis to stop me, would they? I could simply walk away and ignore them.

BTP by contrast presumably would have that legal basis.
 

alistairlees

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As soon as you are no longer ‘railside’, and are in an area which may be accessed by the public without need of a ticket then you may dispose of your ticket safely. Whether the land is railway property or not is irrelevant (and how could you be expected to know?). The idea that you need to keep your ticket after leaving ‘railside’ is ridiculous.
 

SteveyBee131

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Some ticket barriers dispose of tickets for you! Numerous times I've been through the barriers at Leeds and it's gobbled up my ticket 'never to be seen again.' So, all this 'keep your ticket until some distance beyond' is utter codswallop!
 

AM9

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Once I have actually left railway premises an RPI would not have any legal basis to stop me, would they? I could simply walk away and ignore them.

BTP by contrast presumably would have that legal basis.
Whether that is true is irrelevant. Why is there a problem putting a ticket back in a pocket and walking away once past the gateline? It's a very small price to pay to avoid any problems.
I'm beginning to wonder whether some the posters arguing over what bins are for and just how far railway staff and police juristiction extends are concerned that their ticket might condemn them rather than clear them of any ticketing fraud.
 

Flange Squeal

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I guess you could look at it a bit like a supermarket. I realise some supermarkets' self-service tills give you the option of having a receipt or not, but if you get given/issued with a receipt, do you straight away find a bin to put it in or do you at least retain it until you've got past the security guard's booth often situated by the doors? If I have a receipt, I usually keep it at least until I'm out of the shop knowing that there's a chance it could potentially save a bit of hassle at the exit if it was required (for example something triggering the alarms).
 

Bletchleyite

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I guess you could look at it a bit like a supermarket. I realise some supermarkets' self-service tills give you the option of having a receipt or not, but if you get given/issued with a receipt, do you straight away find a bin to put it in or do you at least retain it until you've got past the security guard's booth often situated by the doors? If I have a receipt, I usually keep it at least until I'm out of the shop knowing that there's a chance it could potentially save a bit of hassle at the exit if it was required (for example something triggering the alarms).

I've always considered the security guard booth to be the "ticket barrier", and it to be normal to put the receipt in the first bin encountered after that.
 

Hadders

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The law relating to supermarkets is different and cannot really be compared to the railway.

In a supermarket a security guard (or any other member of staff for that matter) cannot stop someone unless they have seen an the item be selected, continuously monitored the person while they are in the shop and passed the final point of payment. Security guards can ask for a receipt if alarms sound but you are under no legal obligation to show one.

On the railway you must produce a ticket when requested to do so by an authorised person. If you do not do so you have committed an offence.
 

Baxenden Bank

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At a slight tangent. I often see people board a bus, pay their fare (or scan ENCTS pass) then put the ticket straight into the 'used tickets' bin by the driver. That, I assume, is based upon the lack of having ever experienced on board revenue protection. Different in other parts of the country no doubt.

I have seen people leave their tickets on the table of the train when arriving at St Pancras (EMR platforms), which is barriered and potentially an expensive behaviour.

"Please retain your tickets for inspection" is a pretty simple instruction to follow. It is not exactly a massive burden to comply with.

Would the youngsters mentioned in the OP delete an electronic ticket just as quickly ie when pulling into a station? That said, First M-tickets automatically expire after 15 minutes, even when on a 45 minute bus journey.

I note the OP's final comment but, yes, I blame the parents! More specifically, children pick up on their parents behaviour (good and bad). If they regularly travel with their parents by public transport, the parent subconsciously shows them how to behave ie to keep the ticket until later. As many fewer journeys are now undertaken by public transport, perhaps that bahaviour is simply not being taught?
 

AM9

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I've always considered the security guard booth to be the "ticket barrier", and it to be normal to put the receipt in the first bin encountered after that.
When I buy anything in a supermarket, the receipt goes in the bag with the shopping or if only one or two items, in my pocket.
For goods that might possibly be returned, receipts are kept at home until they are shredded and disposed of in the garden waste bin, (they do have a certain amount of personal information on them). Train tickets get the same treatment, (although only advances might have any ID on them).
 

PeterC

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I guess you could look at it a bit like a supermarket. I realise some supermarkets' self-service tills give you the option of having a receipt or not, but if you get given/issued with a receipt, do you straight away find a bin to put it in or do you at least retain it until you've got past the security guard's booth often situated by the doors? If I have a receipt, I usually keep it at least until I'm out of the shop knowing that there's a chance it could potentially save a bit of hassle at the exit if it was required (for example something triggering the alarms).
[/guote]
Happened to me. Self checkout didn't wouldn't print a recept.nor did it
The law relating to supermarkets is different and cannot really be compared to the railway.

In a supermarket a security guard (or any other member of staff for that matter) cannot stop someone unless they have seen an the item be selected, continuously monitored the person while they are in the shop and passed the final point of payment. Security guards can ask for a receipt if alarms sound but you are under no legal obligation to show one.

On the railway you must produce a ticket when requested to do so by an authorised person. If you do not do so you have committed an offence.
I have had the alarm go off after I chose not to have a receipt printed at the self checkout. If it had been an employee rather than a contracted out security guard who had stopped me I would have given them an earful about how the checkout should have alerted me to the fact that a tag needed removing. I always take a receipt now (and no longer buy t shirts from that supermarket).
 

Kilopylae

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Some would argue that you are still on your journey and should retain your ticket until you have left railway premises
This is not an opinion that 'some would argue'; this is the law.

Bremme v Dubery, 1964, established that in law you are "travelling on the railway" after having alighted the train and before having left the station.
 

alistairlees

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This is not an opinion that 'some would argue'; this is the law.

Bremme v Dubery, 1964, established that in law you are "travelling on the railway" after having alighted the train and before having left the station.
From a ticketing point of view you can "leave the station" but still be on railway premises. I can't see how you are required to have a ticket valid for travel when you are on the publicly-accessible part of a station (such as in the booking office; in the car park; or on the forecourt). What was the definition of "having left the station" in this judgement?
 

Mcr Warrior

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This is not an opinion that 'some would argue'; this is the law.

Bremme v Dubery, 1964, established that in law you are "travelling on the railway" after having alighted the train and before having left the station.
Was that the case where the defendant got on the London Underground, without a ticket, at South Kensington, travelled to Bank, and when challenged at the exit barrier, claimed he'd entered the system at Holborn and offered to pay from there.
 

Kilopylae

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From a ticketing point of view you can "leave the station" but still be on railway premises. I can't see how you are required to have a ticket valid for travel when you are on the publicly-accessible part of a station (such as in the booking office; in the car park; or on the forecourt). What was the definition of "having left the station" in this judgement?

In Bremme, the defendant was behind the barrier so the precedent doesn't touch that.

Was that the case where the defendant got on the London Underground, without a ticket, at South Kensington, travelled to Bank, and when challenged at the exit barrier, claimed he'd entered the system at Holborn and offered to pay from there.

Yes. The defendant claimed that a RoRA prosecution was invalid because the prosecution could not show that he had formed the intent whilst on the train; the court held that even whilst on the platform after having alighted the train he was still "travelling on the railway."
 

Mcr Warrior

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How does the Bremme case help, given that the defendant hadn't actually held a ticket in the first place, and was also possibly attempting to short fare for his journey?
 

kristiang85

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I guess you could look at it a bit like a supermarket. I realise some supermarkets' self-service tills give you the option of having a receipt or not, but if you get given/issued with a receipt, do you straight away find a bin to put it in or do you at least retain it until you've got past the security guard's booth often situated by the doors? If I have a receipt, I usually keep it at least until I'm out of the shop knowing that there's a chance it could potentially save a bit of hassle at the exit if it was required (for example something triggering the alarms).

This is a good point; I always binned my receipts, but after being stopped once walking out without a receipt for a bottle of wine early on in the times after disposable plastic bags were banned (luckily the person manning the SS tills vouched for me), I do keep them in my back pocket until I remember to dispose of them later.

My train tickets live in my wallet, so again I dispose of them on one of my regular clearouts of that, but I've never been stopped beyond a barrier despite very frequent train use over the last decade.
 

Haywain

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This is a good point; I always binned my receipts, but after being stopped once walking out without a receipt for a bottle of wine early on in the times after disposable plastic bags were banned (luckily the person manning the SS tills vouched for me), I do keep them in my back pocket until I remember to dispose of them later.
As the store will, undoubtedly, have the means of checking the transactions at the self-service terminal and CCTV I regard the receipt as having nothing more than nuisance value.
 

Bletchleyite

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As the store will, undoubtedly, have the means of checking the transactions at the self-service terminal and CCTV I regard the receipt as having nothing more than nuisance value.

Even without that, it would seem a very simple case of asking "Where did you pay?" and then if it was a self service till they check the transaction as you say, or if it was a staffed checkout the member of staff will almost certainly remember that they did sell you the item.
 

jfollows

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It's partly an "age thing", isn't it, not because we change with age but because our experiences differed when we were younger than now.

I always keep my ticket, and they often end up being used as bookmarks.

But when I started travelling regularly by train, in 1970, I was accustomed to having my ticket checked at my arrival station, no matter what time it was, certainly during the late evening rush hour, at Poynton, Prestbury and (less unsurprisingly) Macclesfield. The staff on duty in the booking office came out when the train arrived and checked tickets.

So I got into a good habit from then, I guess. The idea that I would not hang on to my ticket today wouldn't occur to me. It might end up in my pocket or in the bin back at home.

But nowadays it's extremely unusual to have a ticket checked in the afternoon, let alone evening, arriving at Wilmslow. So I can see why people have got into the habit of discarding them sooner than they probably should.
 
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