How long to wait at a ticket machine

[GadgetMan]

What is interesting is some of the most extreme waiting mentioned above is around the 15 - 20 minutes mark if you ignore the hypothetical scenarios.

If 20 minutes is really the worst people occasionally spend queueing then I do not think that is an unreasonable amount of time to allow for purchasing tickets before traveling.

But at the same time, I think that turning up 15 - 20 minutes before your train is due is perfectly acceptable, and indeed having to turn up any length of time before that IMO is not acceptable.

Then we are in agreement are we not???

 

[Wath Yard]

Virgin;
Quote:
2.2 Ticket Office Queueing Times
At ticket offices and Travel Centres which we manage, we
will, in normal circumstances, ensure that you are served
within five minutes, or within three minutes at less busy
times. We will display details of when ticket office queues
are likely to be longest at all the stations we operate.

So with Virgin you would be perfectly entitled to purchase your ticket on the train then. Nothing about best efforts or endeavouring, but quite clearly they will ensure you get served within 3 or 5 minutes.

 

[Failed Unit]

So with Virgin you would be perfectly entitled to purchase your ticket on the train then. Nothing about best efforts or endeavouring, but quite clearly they will ensure you get served within 3 or 5 minutes.

The cynic in me would think that if you are travelling from say Warrington - Preston passengers would use this 5 minutes as an excuse to travel for free.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Then we are in agreement are we not???

I think my point is that 15-20 minutes is fine. But what if the queue is longer than that? Do we expect people to turn up even earlier just incase? Certainly I would say expecting people to turn up more than 20 minutes before their train is pushing it. Indeed in many cases, even 20 minutes is not possible (I am thinking more rural stations where bus services to that station are not regular).

 

[bluenoxid]

That is where you are going wrong. They are not saying you will be served within 5 minutes. The TOCs are saying they aim to serve you within 5 minutes where possible. In reality buying a ticket will take as long as it does.

For instance you can have a very underused station with a TVM that only gets 2 passengers a day. However they could both turn up at the same time and the first one takes 6 minutes to find the ticket they want and purchase it. Have the TOC provided ample facilities, well yes but that does not guarantee a maximum 5 minute wait.

But this is where you are going wrong. The TOCs aim to serve you at a ticket window within five minutes but you're saying waiting 20 minutes is OK for a ticket machine.

There are no guarantees with anything. We are talking a set of circumstances that do occur but are currently not accounted for. It does not matter what expectations or aims are, it is declaring a point when a facility can be deemed as unavailable.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

So with Virgin you would be perfectly entitled to purchase your ticket on the train then. Nothing about best efforts or endeavouring, but quite clearly they will ensure you get served within 3 or 5 minutes.

Depends what you define as a normal circumstance.

 

[Wath Yard]

The cynic in me would think that if you are travelling from say Warrington - Preston passengers would use this 5 minutes as an excuse to travel for free.

And the cynic in thinks that Virgin will always claim they were not normal circumstances, even though to a logical person normal circumstances are when there is not serious disruption or a major event taking place in the town in question.

 

[pemma]

The simple answer is, as long as it takes. The passenger charter does not supersede the law, which states that you need to pay your fare if it is possible to do so.

There's a difference between not paying at the first opportunity and not paying at all.

 

[island]

If the method of payment you wish to use is not accepted, but you have another method of payment that is accepted, you would still be expected to buy a ticket before travelling.

What if you have another method of payment but are unwilling to use it for good reason? Perhaps you know you need all the cash you have on you for a taxi or bus at the other end, and the machine isn't accepting cards? Not trying to have a go at you, but it's not always simple.

So with Virgin you would be perfectly entitled to purchase your ticket on the train then. Nothing about best efforts or endeavouring, but quite clearly they will ensure you get served within 3 or 5 minutes.

You can already purchase a ticket on the train with Virgin. Just not a discounted one I did it the other week when I was in a rush, knowing full well I would have to buy an Anytime ticket (which was, in any case, the only type of ticket valid for my journey).

 

[RJ]

And which members of staff on these stations that have no open ticket office are wandering around with stamped pieces of paper ready for people who haven't got a ticket because of a long queue at a ticket machine?

I was replying in response to the query posed regarding Dunbar.

 

[AlterEgo]

The simple solution would be to have a machine very similar to a PERTIS which would print a type Permit to Travel if queues exceeded the maximum stipulated by a Passenger's Charter. The machine could be turned on by staff if, and only if it was extremely busy.

I agree with the basic principle that a TOC should provide adequate ticket issuing facilities. I would not expect (personally) to wait for more than about seven minutes from joining the queue to walking away with a ticket, if it was a simple enquiry about a walk-up ticket.

 

[radamfi]

The simple solution would be to have a machine very similar to a PERTIS which would print a type Permit to Travel if queues exceeded the maximum stipulated by a Passenger's Charter. The machine could be turned on by staff if, and only if it was extremely busy.

I remember it being announced about 10 years ago (before modern TVMs were installed) that due to staff shortages at Three Bridges they would turn on the Permit to Travel machine in peak times. Have to admit, since there have been 4 TVMs there, I have never seen a significant queue at the TVMs.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I was replying in response to the query posed regarding Dunbar.

Well, okay, if the ticket office at Dunbar has a long queue and the staff are going as quickly as they can, who will issue these bits of paper?

 

[AlterEgo]

I remember it being announced about 10 years ago (before modern TVMs were installed) that due to staff shortages at Three Bridges they would turn on the Permit to Travel machine in peak times. Have to admit, since there have been 4 TVMs there, I have never seen a significant queue at the TVMs.

Maybe they increased ticket machine/staff availability as a result?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

What if you have another method of payment but are unwilling to use it for good reason? Perhaps you know you need all the cash you have on you for a taxi or bus at the other end, and the machine isn't accepting cards? Not trying to have a go at you, but it's not always simple....

To be fair, that isn't the TOC's concern is it. A taxi would swing by a cash point if it meant getting a fare, although a bus might be harder to sort out, assuming there are no cash machines nearby, but like I say, not the TOC's concern.

 

[SS4]

What if you have another method of payment but are unwilling to use it for good reason? Perhaps you know you need all the cash you have on you for a taxi or bus at the other end, and the machine isn't accepting cards? Not trying to have a go at you, but it's not always simple.

I'd be inclined to say for any reason. While not the TOCs concern can they turn down legal tender?

 

[michael769]

To be fair, that isn't the TOC's concern is it. A taxi would swing by a cash point if it meant getting a fare, although a bus might be harder to sort out, assuming there are no cash machines nearby, but like I say, not the TOC's concern.

If the ToC advertises that certain methods of payment are available then the passenger should be free to use whichever of those methods they choose to use - and their obligation to buy a ticket should be at the earliest possible opportunity that their chose method is available.

I see nothing the the NCoC or railway law that says that you must use your card to buy a ticket just because a ToC has put it's shareholders profits above adequately staffing its stations.

 

[Failed Unit]

To be fair, that isn't the TOC's concern is it. A taxi would swing by a cash point if it meant getting a fare, although a bus might be harder to sort out, assuming there are no cash machines nearby, but like I say, not the TOC's concern.

Equally, they have no powers to tell you to empty your pockets anyway to prove you don't have any cash if you only offer a valid credit card as the means of payment - if they can't process it then they can't accuse you are fare evasion. It should only be a problem if you knowing hand over a card you know won't work!

 

[island]

To be fair, that isn't the TOC's concern is it. A taxi would swing by a cash point if it meant getting a fare, although a bus might be harder to sort out, assuming there are no cash machines nearby, but like I say, not the TOC's concern.

It will be when it shows up in the Daily Fail that 87-year old Lucinda from Sheerness-on-Sea was left stranded at Sittingbourne with no money to get home!

 

[exile]

The question here is not what the rules actually say (which is in effect that if you want to travel by train and want to be 100% sure of not triggering a PF you'd be best to turn up at the station the previous day) but what they SHOULD say.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If the ToC advertises that certain methods of payment are available then the passenger should be free to use whichever of those methods they choose to use - and their obligation to buy a ticket should be at the earliest possible opportunity that their chose method is available....

Can you show me where it says a passenger can quite legitimately walk past a working ticket machine, or open ticket office, and board a train without a ticket (other than where a TOC allows payment on the train) if they have a method payment that is accepted by that machine, or ticket office, but which the passenger chooses not to use?

....I see nothing the the NCoC or railway law that says that you must use your card to buy a ticket just because a ToC has put it's shareholders profits above adequately staffing its stations.

Erm, the NRCoC says that where there is a facility to buy a ticket you must do so before boarding a train, unless a TOC states that you can buy ticket onboard. If a ticket machine is provided, a facility exists to buy a ticket. Granted there is nothing specific in regards to the shareholders profits or staffing levels, but I don't really think that is necessary.

Equally, they have no powers to tell you to empty your pockets anyway to prove you don't have any cash if you only offer a valid credit card as the means of payment - if they can't process it then they can't accuse you are fare evasion. It should only be a problem if you knowing hand over a card you know won't work!

Quite possibly, but then if you open up your wallet to get your card and the guard sees there is a twenty sitting there, your line about not having cash is exposed as a lie.

It will be when it shows up in the Daily Fail that 87-year old Lucinda from Sheerness-on-Sea was left stranded at Sittingbourne with no money to get home!

Ah yes, good old trial by media, the last bastion of "a victim of an evil railway empire". Since when do the tabloid media need an excuse to have a go at the railway?

 

[michael769]

Erm, the NRCoC says that where there is a facility to buy a ticket you must do so before boarding a train, unless a TOC states that you can buy ticket onboard. If a ticket machine is provided, a facility exists to buy a ticket. Granted there is nothing specific in regards to the shareholders profits or staffing levels, but I don't really think that is necessary.

I do not believe that a machine that does not accept the passengers chosen method of payment (assuming it is a method of payment that the ToC generally accepts) constitutes an opportunity to purchase a ticket.

The NCoC contains no provision to allow the ToC to unreasonably restrict a passengers choice as to which commonly accepted (by the ToC) means of payment they choose to use.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....The NCoC contains no provision to allow the ToC to unreasonably restrict a passengers choice as to which commonly accepted (by the ToC) means of payment they choose to use.

The only provision in the NRCoC for a passenger to choose not to buy a ticket before boarding (which is what you are saying here) is where a TOC allows the passenger to buy tickets onboard. There is no provision for a passenger to choose not to buy a ticket before boarding for any other reason.

If you think I am in error here please provide evidence to the contrary.

 

[MikeWh]

Another potential scenario might be a passenger with a company credit card and plenty of cash where the company rules state that any expenses to be claimed must be put on the company credit card.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

That also is not the concern of the railway though.

 

[Failed Unit]

The only provision in the NRCoC for a passenger to choose not to buy a ticket before boarding (which is what you are saying here) is where a TOC allows the passenger to buy tickets onboard. There is no provision for a passenger to choose not to buy a ticket before boarding for any other reason.

If you think I am in error here please provide evidence to the contrary.

I think to be honest only a court will decide. But considering the gaurds have the means of accepting credit cards they are not going to get into the debate. To be prosecuted for fare evasion you are refusing to pay which isnt the case if you offer a card which the TOC normally accepts. (ie not electron)

 

[michael769]

That also is not the concern of the railway though.

The concern of the railway is to make reasonable provision for passengers to purchase tickets using commonly accepted means of payment.

 

[Wolfie]

That also is not the concern of the railway though.

It soon will be when a Minister in DaFT writes to the MD of the TOC after receiving a letter from the MP of an aggrieved passenger. Believe me, having worked in Whitehall for nearly 30 years, that is exactly what would happen! Oh, not to mention the standard metric in Govt is now the "Daily Mail" test - ie how will the Daily Mail report it - again no Minister is going to be too happy with a TOC which causes him grief on such an issue. Not exactly enhancing to future franchise prospects.......

When will it penetrate the thick skulls of the TOCs that they are in a service industry? Frankly the numbskulls who run TOCs would not last 10 minutes were there any genuine competition. The more they take the sort of stance you espouse the more likely a review of all rail-related ticketing legislation becomes.....

 

[blacknight]

When will it penetrate the thick skulls of the TOCs that they are in a service industry? Frankly the numbskulls who run TOCs would not last 10 minutes were there any genuine competition. The more they take the sort of stance you espouse the more likely a review of all rail-related ticketing legislation becomes.....

Mock Daily Mail Headline
Silver Plated Public Sector Whitehall Warrior Abuses Position to Blackmail TOC's
Is it now DfT policy to employing a Krays protection racket or what when awarding franchises.
Why is it a railway problem as to how private company renumerates its employee travel claims.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I think to be honest only a court will decide. But considering the gaurds have the means of accepting credit cards they are not going to get into the debate. To be prosecuted for fare evasion you are refusing to pay which isnt the case if you offer a card which the TOC normally accepts. (ie not electron)

It's not necessarily a case of being prosecuted for fare evasion, it may be the difference between an Off-Peak ticket and the Anytime fare.

How many people who deliberately board without paying for a ticket offer to pay the guard when he comes round?