How long to wait at a ticket machine

[pemma]

Compare with NRCoC Condition 3. In those situations you should buy a ticket atleast part of the way, it seems like a reasonable compromise in that context.

If TOCs want to enforce that they should advertise how and when a ticket can be excessed as most rail users don't know what an excess is. The reality is they don't want to because it allows people like Martin Lewis to publicise how to pay less for a rail journey and they'd probably lose more money that way.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I don't see how it would encourage people like Martin Lewis any more than they already publicise stuff.

 

[ainsworth74]

One thought that has occurred to me in relation to walking past a working TVM because it doesn't offer the method of payment you wish use is that how does the guard/RPI or anyone else know that you do in fact have a means of using that TVM.

For example HHF has suggested (apologies if I've not understood correctly) effectively that if a person wishing to pay using cash (but that had a card on them) walked past a card only TVM when confronted on the train they would be liable to a PF or prosecution or at the very least the range of tickets available to them would be restricted. But how does the guard/RPI know that this person has a card on them? I could easily have the money in my hand to pay and when asked "why didn't you buy before travelling?" I could answer (either truthfully or not) "because the machine only accepted cards and I don't have a card on me". How could a guard/RPI prove that this isn't the case? They don't have any powers to compel me to show them the contents of my wallet. So how do they prove that I do in fact have a card (when I may or may not)? The same also works in reverse I wish to pay by card but the TVM is cash only. How does the guard/RPI prove that I have enough cash on me to pay the fare at the TVM before travelling?

I take HHFs point (though I disagree with it) but I do not see how he (or anyone else) could expect a guard/RPI to actually enforce such a rule, therefore surely the only sensible outcome is that the guard/RPI sells the ticket requested with any appropriate discounts?

 

[Greenback]

One thought that has occurred to me in relation to walking past a working TVM because it doesn't offer the method of payment you wish use is that how does the guard/RPI or anyone else know that you do in fact have a means of using that TVM.

For example HHF has suggested (apologies if I've not understood correctly) effectively that if a person wishing to pay using cash (but that had a card on them) walked past a card only TVM when confronted on the train they would be liable to a PF or prosecution or at the very least the range of tickets available to them would be restricted. But how does the guard/RPI know that this person has a card on them? I could easily have the money in my hand to pay and when asked "why didn't you buy before travelling?" I could answer (either truthfully or not) "because the machine only accepted cards and I don't have a card on me". How could a guard/RPI prove that this isn't the case? They don't have any powers to compel me to show them the contents of my wallet. So how do they prove that I do in fact have a card (when I may or may not)? The same also works in reverse I wish to pay by card but the TVM is cash only. How does the guard/RPI prove that I have enough cash on me to pay the fare at the TVM before travelling?

I take HHFs point (though I disagree with it) but I do not see how he (or anyone else) could expect a guard/RPI to actually enforce such a rule, therefore surely the only sensible outcome is that the guard/RPI sells the ticket requested with any appropriate discounts?

Not only that, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility that someone has cash on them, but no money in the bank or no credit limit on their credit card by which to pay by card.

Until everywhere has the facility for card payments, without any limits on the amount spent or charge to the customer, then cash should always be accepted. It must remain the customer's choice of whether to pay electronically or by cash.

 

[bluenoxid]

Thought some of you might want to see the advice provided by FGW

http://www.fixmytransport.com/campaigns/stop-conductors-from-bullying-passen

Still leaves the mud no clearer.

 

[Greenback]

The responsibility for providing adequate ticket purchasing facilities rests firmly with the TOC. If they are unable to do this, they have no business implementing a buy before you board or a PF policy. Dawlish is a seaside town which has an influx of visitors during holiday periods. One TVM and no ticket office is not going to be sufficient for such a station, especially when there are visitors who will be unfamiliar with fares and timetables.

That said, there is no answer to the question of how long someone should be expected to wait at a TVM. There ar etoo many factors involved, so I'm not surprised that FGW would not give an official answer on how early the person should arrive at the station.

 

[bluenoxid]

Yes Greenback fully agree. I can see it being one that sits ambiguous and thrown out by the operator until someone makes the mistake of taking it to court probably when a subcontractor becomes involved (ala Arriva).

 

[yorkie]

Thought some of you might want to see the advice provided by FGW

http://www.fixmytransport.com/campaigns/stop-conductors-from-bullying-passen

Still leaves the mud no clearer.

I am appalled at the response.

FGW basically are saying:

• The ticket office can be closed during the morning peak and passengers just have to accept that, and FGW don't take any responsibility for it (!!!)
• Customers must buy before boarding and that will not normally be waived (!!!)
• Customers have to decide for themselves how long to wait, and even 20 mins may not be enough (!!!)
• The passenger has responsibilities to buy a ticket, FGW has no responsibilities to enable them to do so in a timely way (!!!)

No other industry would treat its customers this way. The message is simple: FGW do not want your custom! My advice to people from Dawlish would be to look into alternatives e.g. car sharing schemes instead. The only way FGW will treat people as customers should be treated, is if those customers actually have a choice and stop using them when mistreated. Other service industries are concerned about retaining custom and therefore behave a certain way. If FGW know they can fill the trains regardless, then they are going to continue to treat people badly - unless, of course, it costs them the franchise. So pressure on MPs and the DfT could be the way to go.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...HHF has suggested (apologies if I've not understood correctly) effectively that if a person wishing to pay using cash (but that had a card on them) walked past a card only TVM when confronted on the train they would be liable to a PF or prosecution or at the very least the range of tickets available to them would be restricted. But how does the guard/RPI know that this person has a card on them?...

I think we need to contact Northern's Press Office or Customer Relations about this matter, as we've not had any confirmation that this is their policy, and I'd be interested to read what they have to say!

But, my advice to anyone who has a company credit card on them, or a card with insufficient funds, a card for an account that has gone overdrawn etc or any other reason why they do not wish to use the card, would be to ensure the card is well hidden.

 

[infobleep]

Interestingly when I travel in the peak morning rush hour when I travel to Loondon Waterloo from Guildford, very often I will hear the guard say if passengers need to buy a ticket I will be walking through the train or I have not been able to walk through the train but I will be on the concourse at Waterloo.

Now the train service in question is often the 7.34 where I hear it but I'm sure I've heard it on others.

This seems to go against everything that the train companies try to imply, that you could buy your ticket in advance. Clearly the actual wording sas you may be charged a penalty fare but I can't see which stations at that time of the morning would not have facilities on a regular basis to by ones tickets.

If people think they can board without buying tickets during peak rush hour, they might simply do it anytime of the day.

Personally if I'm running late and the ticket barriers are open, I will just ask the guard before boarding the train if he would mind selling me a ticket. He can always say no.

I did once board a gatwick to Guildford train without a ticket but I had just come off a flight; it was after 10pm and I didn't fancy waiting another whole hour for the next train. Guard was understanding because I went to find him straight away. Now of course that wouldn't be possible because they have put barriers in place, although at 10pm there might not be any barrier staff.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

That is the fun. I am wondering if anyone has managed to get an operator to overturn a penalty fare because of queues at ticket machines.

It is interesting and could be something that the operators may have to consider if they want to continue rolling ticket machines out in substitution to booking offices.

Like to see you try that at an underground station.

 

[Clip]

Reading your story, if this happens again, I'd travel but I'd gather evidence. Take a photo of the queue when you arrive, and note the exact time that you arrive at the station. Photo the queue length again as your train arrives. The problem in your situation is that the guard, or any RPI, doesn't know if you arrive 1 minute or 21 minutes before your departure time. As you might expect 'I didn't have time' is a fairly common excuse and there's no way of them knowing if you are honest or a chancer.

To be honest a better idea than taking pictures - which may or may not be time stamped - you could always use the help point if the station has one to inform the control that there are very longs queues and people may board the train without a ticket.

Then if they do their job right an APB will go out and guards will know that there may be passengers who have not got a ticket travelling whilst also checing the CCTV to prove this.

This also should be done if TVMs are ineffectual.


And ill wait for people to mention that its not the job of the passenger blah blah blah... But if you dont want the extra hassle of trying to convince the guard then why not take some small steps yourself to keep people informed. you never know you may see TVMs get fixed quicker too.

 

[bluenoxid]

Like to see you try that at an underground station.

Nothing stopping a legal challenge with TfL. You are not providing enough effective machines. Having had a successful FoI over an escalator failure, I don't see it being difficult to target ticket machine failures. A judge may not look favourably on a prosecution which rides to court on the back of incompetence.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To be honest a better idea than taking pictures - which may or may not be time stamped - you could always use the help point if the station has one to inform the control that there are very longs queues and people may board the train without a ticket.

Then if they do their job right an APB will go out and guards will know that there may be passengers who have not got a ticket travelling whilst also checing the CCTV to prove this.

This also should be done if TVMs are ineffectual.


And ill wait for people to mention that its not the job of the passenger blah blah blah... But if you dont want the extra hassle of trying to convince the guard then why not take some small steps yourself to keep people informed. you never know you may see TVMs get fixed quicker too.

That is really good advice.

 

[Kentish Paul]

In my experience the TOC knows when there are problems with TVM's and large numbers of people buying tickets.
On my last trip from Ashford (Kent), one TVM was broken and the other would not accept cards. The queue at the windows got bigger and bigger. Within two minutes the barriers were opened and an anoucement made that tickets could be bought on the train. This was repeated on the train (09:43 to STP) with the addition of "due to the ticket buying problems at Ashford, please see me for a ticket". It was obvious that the train crews had been made aware of the problems.

Just shows it can be done.

 

[Urban Gateline]

In my experience the TOC knows when there are problems with TVM's and large numbers of people buying tickets.
On my last trip from Ashford (Kent), one TVM was broken and the other would not accept cards. The queue at the windows got bigger and bigger. Within two minutes the barriers were opened and an anoucement made that tickets could be bought on the train. This was repeated on the train (09:43 to STP) with the addition of "due to the ticket buying problems at Ashford, please see me for a ticket". It was obvious that the train crews had been made aware of the problems.

Just shows it can be done.

The sceptic part of me would be questioning how many people actually would buy their ticket on the train when the barriers are opened, I suspect some will use it as an opportunity to travel for free to an unbarriered station.

 

[MarkyMarkD]

But I travelled from Rochester to Faversham at the weekend. Rochester had no internet connectivity, so nobody could buy tickets (at the ticket office or the TVM) with cards.

Presumably passengers with cards were recommended to get their tickets on the train or at their destination, but there was no mention (indeed, no squeak and no appearance) from the guard throughout my journey and the barriers at the destination were open.

Sometimes (very often, probably?) the TOCs do not help themselves.

When I got back to Rochester that evening, a huge crowd of Southeastern RPIs were getting ready to go into action - despite the ticket machine problem STILL persisting and therefore many passengers having had problems buying tickets all day long.

 

[LE Greys]

Strangely, my neck was saved by a broken ticket machine once. I was heading home from Aberdeen with a trunk, scarcely a pound in my pocket and horrendous football match traffic. As a result, I got to the station with nowhere near enough time to collect my tickets (pre-booked AP). Then the machine was broken. When I queued up to explain, the clerk not only let me off, she rebooked me on the train the next morning. Trunk went in left luggage (after borrowing £4) and I went back to my flat for a good night's sleep. If the machine hadn't been broken, I would have been right up the creek with not a leg to stand on. Amazing stroke of luck.

Really, all this thread suggests is that PTT machines should be used more widely. It gives proof of where you started from and the time, redeemable later, and is a heck of a lot quicker to use (as I found out recently).

 

[jon0844]

Yes, PTT machines should be brought back at quite a few stations.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Nothing stopping a legal challenge with TfL. You are not providing enough effective machines. Having had a successful FoI over an escalator failure, I don't see it being difficult to target ticket machine failures. A judge may not look favourably on a prosecution which rides to court on the back of incompetence.
QUOTE]

I was thinking more along the lines that apart from one or two isolated stations (which are unlikely to have queues) it is unlikely you would get through the gates unless you leap over them or push through behind someone else.