How many ex-National Bus Company (NBC) names or independent ex-NBC operators left?

[nw1]

Was wondering how many of the 'classic' NBC / pre-NBC company names remain in existence? And a related question, are any of the ex-NBC operators still independent rather than being owned by the large groups (First, Stagecoach, Go-Ahead, Arriva..)

The only ex-NBC names still in existence AFAIK are Southern Vectis and Trent, and I think Trent is still-independent, perhaps the only ex-NBC operator to remain so.

But struggling to find any of the classic names being used as public-facing names. Locally: Southdown - gone. Hants and Dorset/Hampshire Bus - gone. Wilts and Dorset - technically exists, but isn't used on the branding anymore. London Country - gone. Alder Valley/Aldershot and District/Thames Valley - gone.

In other parts of the country: Midland Red, PMT, Crosville appear to be no more. As I said above Trent is the only one that I can think of, and Southern Vectis as a name (though no longer independent). I'm thinking of the public-facing, brand names rather than the legal name of the company.

Admittedly there are large tracts of the country I visit exceedingly rarely, including much of the east.

 

[175mph]

Although it is now part of the Go Ahead group, East Yorkshire buses?

 

[cnjb8]

Was wondering how many of the 'classic' NBC / pre-NBC company names remain in existence? And a related question, are any of the ex-NBC operators still independent rather than being owned by the large groups (First, Stagecoach, Go-Ahead, Arriva..)

The only ex-NBC names still in existence AFAIK are Southern Vectis and Trent, and I think Trent is still-independent, perhaps the only ex-NBC operator to remain so.

But struggling to find any of the classic names being used as public-facing names. Locally: Southdown - gone. Hants and Dorset/Hampshire Bus - gone. Wilts and Dorset - technically exists, but isn't used on the branding anymore. London Country - gone. Alder Valley/Aldershot and District/Thames Valley - gone.

In other parts of the country: Midland Red, PMT, Crosville appear to be no more. As I said above Trent is the only one that I can think of, and Southern Vectis as a name (though no longer independent). I'm thinking of the public-facing, brand names rather than the legal name of the company.

Admittedly there are large tracts of the country I visit exceedingly rarely, including much of the east.

Trent is part of the Wellglade Group in the form TrentBarton.
Thames Valley has been revived by Reading Buses a few years ago to operate former First Berkshire routes. It now also encompasses former Courtney routes too

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

East Yorkshire would seem fairly straightforward!

First still call themselves Eastern Counties in that part of the world.

South Wales Transport exists but as a call back to the past; the original SWT is now First Cymru.

However, whilst not a classic, Badgerline was an NBC firm and has been revived for First in Weston.

Of course, Stagecoach didn’t rename many of the legal entities (unlike Arriva or First) so you will still find it on the vehicle legal lettering!

 

[Journeyman]

A lot of NBC brands disappeared long before the companies were sold, as most of them were broken up into smaller companies first. This brought back quite a lot of long-dormant names lost through earlier mergers.

 

[Roilshead]

Off the top of my head the only ones with direct provenance I can think of are Green Line (still hanging on in there, just), Potteries (this was used as the company fleetname on all National white coaches by PMT, and may have been applied to one-or-two NBC-liveried buses before PMT was decided on as the fleet-name), East Yorkshire, Notts & Derby, Oxford, Southern Vectis, South Wales, Western Welsh, Scarborough & District (although it actually appears on very few buses now), Badgerline, and Bath (if we ignore that under First its actually Bath City) - S&D and Badgerline being products of pre-privatisation NBC divisions, and Badgerline and Western Welsh are only used by First operating companies in a much more limited way than originally-constituted.

There's Thames Valley - as suggested by cnjb8 - if a resurrection of an NBC name (and in this case it is in the same operating area) by a different operator counts. On that score, how about Chaserider? - not a fleet-name as such, but a resurrection of a Midland Red MAP (market analysis project) name by D&G for its newly-acquired ex-Arriva Cannock-based operations.

The Grand Wazoo suggests Eastern Counties, but the First website is under "First Norfolk & Suffolk" and don't the buses themselves carry other fleet-names? I stand to be corrected . . .

I don't think Trent counts, as although it is still a legally-constituted company it is never used in a public-facing way as such, always appearing as TrentBarton - but we can include sister Wellglade company Notts & Derby. Trent Motor Traction Ltd is now the only "independent" ex-NBC company - it is owned by Wellglade Holdings Ltd, but as that was the company formed by General Manager Brian King and colleagues to effect the buy-out from NBC (and which has gone on to form/acquire other companies, or interests in other companies) I think it still counts as being independent.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The Grand Wazoo suggests Eastern Counties, but the First website is under "First Norfolk & Suffolk" and don't the buses themselves carry other fleet-names? I stand to be corrected . . .

They have reintroduced it on the recent schemes.... (see above rear wheel arch on deckers, rear cove panel on Streetlite)

First Eastern Counties 37572 - AU58ECW

Lowestoft Road, Hopton Coastal Clipper 1A (Lowestoft via Gorleston) Volvo B9TL Wright Eclipse-Gemini

www.flickr.com

BUS0908 33423 SN60CAA First Lowestoft Bus Station 02.04.2021

Explore 31417's 10807 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

First Eastern Counties 47504 - SN64CPY

Wright StreetLite DF 10.8 Brome, Suffolk Sporting the new Coastal Reds livery for Great Yarmouth and Lowestoft town services

www.flickr.com

There was indeed a period when PMT buses had Potteries fleetnames

Potteries 282

Having just backed of the stand in Hanley Bus Station, Potteries Leyland National 282 (KRE 282P) starts to move towards the exit leaving the characteristic cloud of white exhaust smoke.

www.flickr.com

 

[Roilshead]

They have reintroduced it on the recent schemes.... (see above rear wheel arch on deckers, rear cove panel on Streetlite)

First Eastern Counties 37572 - AU58ECW

Lowestoft Road, Hopton Coastal Clipper 1A (Lowestoft via Gorleston) Volvo B9TL Wright Eclipse-Gemini

www.flickr.com

BUS0908 33423 SN60CAA First Lowestoft Bus Station 02.04.2021

Explore 31417's 10807 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

First Eastern Counties 47504 - SN64CPY

Wright StreetLite DF 10.8 Brome, Suffolk Sporting the new Coastal Reds livery for Great Yarmouth and Lowestoft town services

www.flickr.com

There was indeed a period when PMT buses had Potteries fleetnames

Potteries 282

Having just backed of the stand in Hanley Bus Station, Potteries Leyland National 282 (KRE 282P) starts to move towards the exit leaving the characteristic cloud of white exhaust smoke.

www.flickr.com

I stand corrected, sir. (And thank you for providing "Potteries" evidence.)

 

[A0wen]

There's Thames Valley - as suggested by cnjb8 - if a resurrection of an NBC name (and in this case it is in the same operating area) by a different operator counts.

Thames Valley wasn't really an "NBC name" - it was a BET company which became part of the NBC from January 1969 but was merged with Aldershot & District on 1st Jan 1972.

So I'd suggest Alder Valley was an NBC name but Aldershot & District and Thames Valley weren't because they were only used by the NBC for a short time. And even when the break up of Alder Valley occurred Thames Valley wasn't ressurected instead 'Berks Bucks Bus Company' was used with The Bee Line as the name on the vehicles.

 

[robertclark125]

North of the border, First Scotland east has been using the "Midland" name on some vehicles from Bannockburn and Larbert depots. The livery on said vehicles is a slightly different shade of blue to the old Midland Scottish blue.

 

[MotCO]

National Express?

 

[Roilshead]

Thames Valley wasn't really an "NBC name" - it was a BET company which became part of the NBC from January 1969 but was merged with Aldershot & District on 1st Jan 1972.

So I'd suggest Alder Valley was an NBC name but Aldershot & District and Thames Valley weren't because they were only used by the NBC for a short time. And even when the break up of Alder Valley occurred Thames Valley wasn't ressurected instead 'Berks Bucks Bus Company' was used with The Bee Line as the name on the vehicles.

So, from 1969-1972 it was an NBC name, just like all the other ex-BET/ex-Tilling names that lasted into/throughout the NBC era, or those names that were created by NBC in the run up to its dissolution. I really don't follow your logic here . . .

National Express?

National Holidays . . . are they still trading, post-Covid?

 

[Robertj21a]

Thames Valley wasn't really an "NBC name" - it was a BET company which became part of the NBC from January 1969 but was merged with Aldershot & District on 1st Jan 1972.

So I'd suggest Alder Valley was an NBC name but Aldershot & District and Thames Valley weren't because they were only used by the NBC for a short time. And even when the break up of Alder Valley occurred Thames Valley wasn't ressurected instead 'Berks Bucks Bus Company' was used with The Bee Line as the name on the vehicles.

?? - Wasn't Thames Valley a Tilling company ?

 

[Busaholic]

?? - Wasn't Thames Valley a Tilling company ?

It most certainly was - hence all the Bristols!!!

 

[cnjb8]

So, from 1969-1972 it was an NBC name, just like all the other ex-BET/ex-Tilling names that lasted into/throughout the NBC era, or those names that were created by NBC in the run up to its dissolution. I really don't follow your logic here . . .


National Holidays . . . are they still trading, post-Covid?

Yes National Holidays are a trading name of a company whose name I can’t remember now

 

[nw1]

Thanks for the replies.. wasn't aware Thames Valley had been resurrected to be honest, though admittedly it doesn't cover the whole of the original area, certainly last time I was up in that area (High Wycombe to be exact) everything was Arriva.

 

[Roilshead]

?? - Wasn't Thames Valley a Tilling company ?

Oops! . . .

 

[A0wen]

So, from 1969-1972 it was an NBC name, just like all the other ex-BET/ex-Tilling names that lasted into/throughout the NBC era, or those names that were created by NBC in the run up to its dissolution. I really don't follow your logic here . . .

Most NBC names were continuation of what had been BET / Tilling before, albeit some smaller ones got merged into larger entities and disappeared.

I can't think of any other where the name was an NBC creation as part of its formation (MAP and privatisation were later) apart from Alder Valley. And the original names were only used for 3 out of the almost 20 years that NBC existed.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Most NBC names were continuation of what had been BET / Tilling before, albeit some smaller ones got merged into larger entities and disappeared.

I can't think of any other where the name was an NBC creation as part of its formation (MAP and privatisation were later) apart from Alder Valley. And the original names were only used for 3 out of the almost 20 years that NBC existed.

National Welsh?

 

[busesrusuk]

How about London Country as another created by NBC. Strictly speaking it was originally London Transport (Country bus dept) IIRC...

 

[Busaholic]

Southdown PSV in Sussex is carrying on the name from Southdown Motor Services, but don't expect to get a ride on a Queen Mary!

 

[Deerfold]

Yes National Holidays are a trading name of a company whose name I can’t remember now

StackPath

© Just Go! Holidays Ltd trading as National Holidays, registered office address: First Floor, 111 High Street, Cheltenham, GLoucestershire, GL50 1DW

 

[Flange Squeal]

While not continuous, the 'Greenslades' name survived through NBC Western National ownership, and then with subsequent owners, right through until 2011. It was revived in 2018. https://www.greensladestours.co.uk/about-us

 

[cnjb8]

StackPath

Ah thank you

 

[A0wen]

?? - Wasn't Thames Valley a Tilling company ?

The internet is unclear. Thames Valley was definitely started as a BET company with a minority Tilling shareholding. Some articles suggest control switched in the 1940's and it was part of Transport Holdings Company in 1962.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The internet is unclear. Thames Valley was definitely started as a BET company with a minority Tilling shareholding. Some articles suggest control switched in the 1940's and it was part of Transport Holdings Company in 1962.

I think it's a confusion of BET, in that they developed a subsidiary to create bus services called BAT British Automobile Traction. Tillings bought into that business, and there were a number of firms that were owned jointly by BAT (whom Tillings had an interest in) and Tillings themselves. So in 1928, there was an exchange of cash and share leading to the creation of TBAT - what we would now call a joint venture (you can work out the acronym) and this period is what you see in terms of classic "Tilling" architecture in bus stations and bus depots of which some still exist (e.g. Kettering, Taunton).

However, that lasted until 1942 when TBAT was dissolved and various firms including Thames Valley passed to full Tillings control, and well as integrating other purchases which is how Bristol Commercial Vehicles and Eastern Coach Works came together. This was short lived as the Attlee government then realised their intention to nationalise elements of the bus industry with Tillings selling to the British Transport Commission in 1948, moving seamlessly into the Transport Holdings Company and then to the NBC in 1969.

So along with many other classic Tilling firms known for their red or green liveries and fleets of Bristol/ECW vehicles, it had a convoluted history as many other firms did being tied up in entrepreneurs, railway companies, groupings and sub-groupings etc. However, it is generally accorded as being one of the classic Tilling firms with its TBAT/Tilling/BTC/THC history and a fleet of Tilling red ECW bodied Bristols.

 

[nw1]

Taking a slightly different tack now, I wonder how many 'classic' National Bus Company (NBC) (any era, even the later years) or pre-NBC names could -theoretically - be re-created in some form by changing branding *but without change of ownership*?

If the large groups were willing to dispense with 'corporate' livery, maybe original pre-NBC, NBC or early post-NBC colour schemes could be restored, even. It's accepted that it may not be possible to cover the entire 'classic' area, just a significant part of it.

Not saying this will happen, or that bus companies should spend perhaps scarce money on such things, but in an ideal world...

Thinking of a few brandings that could be recreated locally:

Hants and Dorset OR Wilts and Dorset - could be recreated by used for Go-Ahead buses in the Bluestar and ex-Wilts and Dorset areas (combined into one operation). I suppose 'Hants Wilts and Dorset' would be more accurate but there was never a company called that...

Southdown - could be used by Stagecoach buses in Sussex, covering I think most or all of the classic area;

Provincial - could be used by First buses in the Fareham and Portsmouth area;

Hampshire Bus - could be used by Stagecoach operations in Hampshire, aside from those in the Aldershot and Guildford areas (see below);

Badgerline OR Bristol Omnibus (take your pick) - could be extended to cover all First operations in the area.

Aldershot and District - could be used for Stagecoach buses in the Aldershot and Guildford areas.

London Country (South West) - could be used for Arriva buses in the Guildford area, accepting that a lot of these routes were formerly Alder Valley and before that, Aldershot and District.

East Kent - l think Stagecoach run all the buses in the area, so the East Kent name and livery could be revived.

For whatever reason, the large private groups seem to have been much keener to dispense with 'classic' names than the NBC ever were.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Taking a slightly different tack now, I wonder how many 'classic' National Bus Company (NBC) (any era, even the later years) or pre-NBC names could -theoretically - be re-created in some form by changing branding *but without change of ownership*?

If the large groups were willing to dispense with 'corporate' livery, maybe original pre-NBC, NBC or early post-NBC colour schemes could be restored, even. It's accepted that it may not be possible to cover the entire 'classic' area, just a significant part of it.

Not saying this will happen, or that bus companies should spend perhaps scarce money on such things, but in an ideal world...

Thinking of a few brandings that could be recreated locally:

Hants and Dorset OR Wilts and Dorset - could be recreated by used for Go-Ahead buses in the Bluestar and ex-Wilts and Dorset areas (combined into one operation). I suppose 'Hants Wilts and Dorset' would be more accurate but there was never a company called that...

Southdown - could be used by Stagecoach buses in Sussex, covering I think most or all of the classic area;

Provincial - could be used by First buses in the Fareham and Portsmouth area;

Hampshire Bus - could be used by Stagecoach operations in Hampshire, aside from those in the Aldershot and Guildford areas (see below);

Badgerline OR Bristol Omnibus (take your pick) - could be extended to cover all First operations in the area.

Aldershot and District - could be used for Stagecoach buses in the Aldershot and Guildford areas.

London Country (South West) - could be used for Arriva buses in the Guildford area, accepting that a lot of these routes were formerly Alder Valley and before that, Aldershot and District.

East Kent - l think Stagecoach run all the buses in the area, so the East Kent name and livery could be revived.

For whatever reason, the large private groups seem to have been much keener to dispense with 'classic' names than the NBC ever were.

Devon General - still covered by all of Stagecoach SW

Cityline (Bristol)

 

[Ken H]

Taking a slightly different tack now, I wonder how many 'classic' National Bus Company (NBC) (any era, even the later years) or pre-NBC names could -theoretically - be re-created in some form by changing branding *but without change of ownership*?

If the large groups were willing to dispense with 'corporate' livery, maybe original pre-NBC, NBC or early post-NBC colour schemes could be restored, even. It's accepted that it may not be possible to cover the entire 'classic' area, just a significant part of it.

Not saying this will happen, or that bus companies should spend perhaps scarce money on such things, but in an ideal world...

Thinking of a few brandings that could be recreated locally:

Hants and Dorset OR Wilts and Dorset - could be recreated by used for Go-Ahead buses in the Bluestar and ex-Wilts and Dorset areas (combined into one operation). I suppose 'Hants Wilts and Dorset' would be more accurate but there was never a company called that...

Southdown - could be used by Stagecoach buses in Sussex, covering I think most or all of the classic area;

Provincial - could be used by First buses in the Fareham and Portsmouth area;

Hampshire Bus - could be used by Stagecoach operations in Hampshire, aside from those in the Aldershot and Guildford areas (see below);

Badgerline OR Bristol Omnibus (take your pick) - could be extended to cover all First operations in the area.

Aldershot and District - could be used for Stagecoach buses in the Aldershot and Guildford areas.

London Country (South West) - could be used for Arriva buses in the Guildford area, accepting that a lot of these routes were formerly Alder Valley and before that, Aldershot and District.

East Kent - l think Stagecoach run all the buses in the area, so the East Kent name and livery could be revived.

For whatever reason, the large private groups seem to have been much keener to dispense with 'classic' names than the NBC ever were.

Harrogate and District, York and Country and Coastliner could become West Yorkshire, and Keighley Bus Company becoming Keighley-West Yorkshire. Indeed they can trace their roots back to WYRCC

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Harrogate and District, York and Country and Coastliner could become West Yorkshire, and Keighley Bus Company becoming Keighley-West Yorkshire. Indeed they can trace their roots back to WYRCC

The point is that you couldn't recreate West Yorkshire. Half the operations are under First Group with the former Leeds and Bradford operations are now absorbed into what is now First West Yorkshire (though the three depots are still standing AFAIK) and First York, whilst Keighley, Harrogate and Malton are under Transdev ownership.

However, you could easily debrand Arriva's ops to recreate West Riding AND Yorkshire Woollen