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How many of our Heritage Railways are in trouble?

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Train Landscape (1939). Travel First Class on the Isle of Wight Steam Railway to enjoy the full leather strap experience.
Not just first but third class as well as per the Ravilious painting. Moreover they can be experienced on each and every train. I get a bit "Huh" about the "heritage" part of heritage railways sometimes.

o_O You might want to re-phrase that...
One of a number of railway terms with unfortunate double meanings, as in "blowing off"!
 

duffield

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It's nice to know that even in my seen-it-all 50's 'leather strap experience' only conjoured up pictures and thoughts of the IOWSR and it needed someone else to point out the obvious other meaning. Still a tinge of innocence left then!
 

Ken H

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I have never volunteered on a preserved railway, and rarely visit.

I did take grandkids to the little Evesham Valley Light Railway when they were little and they loved it. 17 & 15 now so perhaps not!

So these are my suggestions for making a preserved railway profitable.

1. Its theatre. make sure your set and actors are as your audience want to see.
2. not too expensive - that mans not too far probably
3. ham it up good. Nicely dressed platform and train staff, lots of whistling and flag waving and loco whistling - kids love that.
4. let kids see onto the footplate. let them see the fire. have staff who can explain to kids how stuff works at their level. Any teachers in your volunteers?
5. have train colouring books so kids have something to do on the train if they get bored. or just free placemats they can colour in.
6. At one end have some retail. if you have enough footfall you may attract market traders. Have a shop but more than the usual plastic thomas tat. people are suckers for 'tasteful' coasters, crockery. Decent retail will keep the ladies happy.
7. Catering. Again, this is part of the theatre. Cups and saucers, nice home made cake. comfy chairs. It needs to be more Costa than school dinners. decent tea and coffee. and the decor and furniture should match the rest of the theatre. or get and old Mk 1 and use that as the caff. And dont run out of cake at 15:00 just as the last train comes in! And make the catering available for non railway users. Lot of money from passing trade. i used to use the caff at the welshpool and llanfair station when travelling through mid wales.
8. Think, what other attraction can I have to keep people on site, so they stay longer and spend more £££. Model railway? craftsmen actually making stuff and selling it, like a glassblower, a wood turner or even a forge. And a kids play area, railway themed.

Look at Devon Railway Centre. 2 outdoor railways -narrow gauge, tea room, kids play areas, model railway housed in old carriages. £35 unlimited rides for granny, grandad and the kids.

I am sure some purists here will be going 'AAAARRRGGGGHHHH' at this. But if this keeps your heritage line alive, do you have a choice?
 

yorksrob

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I have never volunteered on a preserved railway, and rarely visit.

I did take grandkids to the little Evesham Valley Light Railway when they were little and they loved it. 17 & 15 now so perhaps not!

So these are my suggestions for making a preserved railway profitable.

1. Its theatre. make sure your set and actors are as your audience want to see.
2. not too expensive - that mans not too far probably
3. ham it up good. Nicely dressed platform and train staff, lots of whistling and flag waving and loco whistling - kids love that.
4. let kids see onto the footplate. let them see the fire. have staff who can explain to kids how stuff works at their level. Any teachers in your volunteers?
5. have train colouring books so kids have something to do on the train if they get bored. or just free placemats they can colour in.
6. At one end have some retail. if you have enough footfall you may attract market traders. Have a shop but more than the usual plastic thomas tat. people are suckers for 'tasteful' coasters, crockery. Decent retail will keep the ladies happy.
7. Catering. Again, this is part of the theatre. Cups and saucers, nice home made cake. comfy chairs. It needs to be more Costa than school dinners. decent tea and coffee. and the decor and furniture should match the rest of the theatre. or get and old Mk 1 and use that as the caff. And dont run out of cake at 15:00 just as the last train comes in! And make the catering available for non railway users. Lot of money from passing trade. i used to use the caff at the welshpool and llanfair station when travelling through mid wales.
8. Think, what other attraction can I have to keep people on site, so they stay longer and spend more £££. Model railway? craftsmen actually making stuff and selling it, like a glassblower, a wood turner or even a forge. And a kids play area, railway themed.

Look at Devon Railway Centre. 2 outdoor railways -narrow gauge, tea room, kids play areas, model railway housed in old carriages. £35 unlimited rides for granny, grandad and the kids.

I am sure some purists here will be going 'AAAARRRGGGGHHHH' at this. But if this keeps your heritage line alive, do you have a choice?

To be fair, some of those things will appeal to purists. Good catering and well targeted retail (on the occasions I visit preserved railways, I'm often in the market for railway books and old magazines).
 

broadgage

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Can I add some of the environmental issues which are starting to have an impact - availability of good quality locomotive coal and possible restrictions on its use, possible future water shortages and the need to fit passenger rolling stock with retention tank toilets (and to have someone empty them). Will oil-firing of steam locos have to be considered?

Some of the longer heritage railways have been able to help TOCs with testing of new rolling stock (e.g. the GCR and SVR) or provide safe storage for new stock pending acceptance (MNR). This will bring useful extra income and, in the case of MNR, additional track capacity. Then there's filming. But many heritage lines won't be able to take advantage of these extra sources of income because of their location or route length.

I am not aware of any shortage of locomotive coal. Oil firing is unlikely to help since oil is more expensive to buy and is expensive to store and is at greater risk of theft than coal.
Water shortages may become a concern, but only during droughts.
Retention tank toilets would be step forward, and I have previously suggested a way to achieve this affordably.

Whilst steam is a large part of rail heritage, there is growing interest in slightly more modern stock. I am not alone in waiting to see a preserved HST on a heritage line, an all first class formation including two kitchens would be ideal for dining trains.

On the national network there is growing interest in battery trains for branch lines, I see opportunities both for testing these on heritage lines, and in regular use of same to provide a low cost service outside the steam season.

Whilst this is a worrying time for heritage railways, it is not ALL doom and gloom.
 

ABB125

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In fairness to the W.S.R., they are by no means the only steam railway to suffer from what I have called "Big Chufferitis".
One of the few railways that seems justifiably able to use "big engines" is the Mid-Hants, as it has a very stiff gradient out of Alton that needs to be taken from a standing start, but most should probably concentrate on using smaller engines.
There needs to be a balance between small, cheap locomotives and big, expensive ones.
On the subject of gradients, is a big passenger engine the best for a steep standing start? On the GWSR, I am told that the best locomotive there (apart from the diesels!) is 2807, a heavy freight engine, because it has power, and only trundles along at 25mph. So perhaps all railways should have one.
 

Cowley

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There needs to be a balance between small, cheap locomotives and big, expensive ones.
On the subject of gradients, is a big passenger engine the best for a steep standing start? On the GWSR, I am told that the best locomotive there (apart from the diesels!) is 2807, a heavy freight engine, because it has power, and only trundles along at 25mph. So perhaps all railways should have one.
It’s interesting that the Mid Hants was mentioned upthread as having a need for large engines due to the gradients.
My favourite locomotive on the line in the 1990s was pocket rocket Standard 4 mogul 76017.
It was one of the easiest to maintain, economical, an ex local engine so authentic, perfectly capable of lifting 5 coaches up the banks whatever the weather (and sounded fantastic too), unlike the West Country ‘Swanage’ which needed careful handling on a greasy rail on the first train of the day.
 

yorksrob

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It’s interesting that the Mid Hants was mentioned upthread as having a need for large engines due to the gradients.

I believe it was nicknamed "The Alps" in pre-closure days. The thumpers managed it though !
 

Cowley

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I believe it was nicknamed "The Alps" in pre-closure days. The thumpers managed it though !
Indeed it was.
1 in 60 Butts Junction to Medstead, then 1 in 60 down towards Ropley and 1 in 80 towards Alresford.
I think the Hampshire Units on the route were reduced to two coaches fairly early on as they were struggling? Don’t quote me on that though!
 

yorksrob

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Indeed it was.
1 in 60 Butts Junction to Medstead, then 1 in 60 down towards Ropley and 1 in 80 towards Alresford.
I think the Hampshire Units on the route were reduced to two coaches fairly early on as they were struggling? Don’t quote me on that though!

They were certainly two-carriage.

Would have been interesting to see what a diverted REP-TC-TC would have made of the route if electrified, but I guess we shall never know.....
 

Flying Phil

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I think Ken H (post #94) makes several very important points which most of our preserved lines do seem to take on board, even though the purists do froth a bit at some dilution of the heritage in pursuit of the "filthy lucre!". It will be interesting to see how popular the GCR's "Goods Galore" event is in May, as that is very much aimed at the historic importance of goods traffic to the railways......and no "Bums on seats" in Windcutter wagons or Box vans!
 

Ken H

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I think Ken H (post #94) makes several very important points which most of our preserved lines do seem to take on board, even though the purists do froth a bit at some dilution of the heritage in pursuit of the "filthy lucre!". It will be interesting to see how popular the GCR's "Goods Galore" event is in May, as that is very much aimed at the historic importance of goods traffic to the railways......and no "Bums on seats" in Windcutter wagons or Box vans!
if its part of the 'theatre', why not?
 

underbank

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I am sure some purists here will be going 'AAAARRRGGGGHHHH' at this. But if this keeps your heritage line alive, do you have a choice?

Don't see why the purists would object to most of the list as it doesn't detract from the "enthusiast" experience - they're free not to engage with the model railway, retail, etc if they don't want to. The only real criticism I've heard from the purists really has been the kiddie theme days, i.e. Thomas, Paw Patrol, Peppa Pig, etc., which they're likewise free to avoid as they're usually special events rather than normal running days.

Serious/casual, young/old, alike seem to like the special events such as the last weekend's South Devon gala where there were crowds of people of all ages and ilks watching displays of goods train marshalling/shunting at the station - realistic for the purists yet interesting for the kids. What's not to like?
 

Shenandoah

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The previous post mentions crowds watching, but that does not pay the bills. Hopefully they were, mostly, spending money as well.
 

Flying Phil

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The previous post mentions crowds watching, but that does not pay the bills. Hopefully they were, mostly, spending money as well.
I think if the crowds are present, then the money will be being spent. This extra activity also benefits the local area - not just the railway. When a line has been temporarily closed, the effect locally has been surprisingly significant.....local councils do notice these things and recognise the overall benefit of "their railway". Thus the threat of a permanent closure does concentrate minds and, (so far...by and large......) our heritage lines are in good health.
 

2392

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I think if the crowds are present, then the money will be being spent. This extra activity also benefits the local area - not just the railway. When a line has been temporarily closed, the effect locally has been surprisingly significant.....local councils do notice these things and recognise the overall benefit of "their railway". Thus the threat of a permanent closure does concentrate minds and, (so far...by and large......) our heritage lines are in good health.

To back up your statement, I can do little better than quote what happened with regards to the North Yorkshire Moors. The Moors had to replace their Bridge 30 [no bridge = no railway] a few years ago, North Yorkshire County Council chipped in £300,000 [yes £300,000]. Whilst yes that's quite a sum of money from the Council Transport Budget. It pales into insignificance when you take into account that the NYMR generate around £30,000,000 [yes £30,000,000] from visitors for the Whitby/Scarborough/National Park area.
 

Journeyman

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Indeed it was.
1 in 60 Butts Junction to Medstead, then 1 in 60 down towards Ropley and 1 in 80 towards Alresford.
I think the Hampshire Units on the route were reduced to two coaches fairly early on as they were struggling? Don’t quote me on that though!

Yeah, when the Hampshire units were upgraded from two to three cars, a pair of them was specially reduced back again for the Mid-Hants, as the three-car units really crawled up the bank.
 

UP13

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Apparently when they finally got the order to reduce to 2 cars, a unit at Alton station immediately shunted the middle trailer into the siding.
 

B7rleThrasher

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I spent 12 years volunteering at my local preserved railway. I recently made the decision to step away for the following reasons:

•Old boys club - the board members were only interested in looking after themselves. The operation was treated like a personal train set and the financial outcomes of galas spoke volumes. Locos would be hired in because the board members wanted them, at huge cost to the railway and hardly anybody would turn up for the galas resulting in a financial loss. Naturally, nobody would be held accountable for such a failing.

•Lack of leadership / Cohesiveness - In my eyes, a good preserved railway has an ex industry professionals leading the way - somebody that knows Transport management and can bond each department and their respective teams together. Sadly at this particular line, the directors did not have such expertise and this shows in the stunted growth and development of the railway over the past 5 years.

•Unreasonably Expectations - Outside of preservation, I’ve got a professional career, a social life and other hobbies. There was a very bad culture at this railway whereby you were treated poorly if you didn’t dedicate every single weekend to volunteering. Sadly, not everybody can dedicate their entire life to a preserved railway.
 
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I spent 12 years volunteering at my local preserved railway. I recently made the decision to step away for the following reasons:

•Old boys club - the board members were only interested in looking after themselves. The operation was treated like a personal train set and the financial outcomes of galas spoke volumes. Locos would be hired in because the board members wanted them, at huge cost to the railway and hardly anybody would turn up for the galas resulting in a financial loss. Naturally, nobody would be held accountable for such a failing.

•Lack of leadership / Cohesiveness - In my eyes, a good preserved railway has an ex industry professionals leading the way - somebody that knows Transport management and can bond each department and their respective teams together. Sadly at this particular line, the directors did not have such expertise and this shows in the stunted growth and development of the railway over the past 5 years.

•Unreasonably Expectations - Outside of preservation, I’ve got a professional career, a social life and other hobbies. There was a very bad culture at this railway whereby you were treated poorly if you didn’t dedicate every single weekend to volunteering. Sadly, not everybody can dedicate their entire life to a preserved railway.
I agree with your comments very largely. In particular, galas have got out of hand. People with financial acumen are thus equally important as operators are.
 

Fawkes Cat

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•Lack of leadership / Cohesiveness - In my eyes, a good preserved railway has an ex industry professionals leading the way - somebody that knows Transport management and can bond each department and their respective teams together.

This perhaps raises a question about what a preserved railway is. Is it
- an attempt to keep a branch line going despite the big railway having closed it;
- a profit making concern
- somewhere for locomotive and rolling stock owners to exercise their trains;
- somewhere for people who enjoy being involved in railway operations/restoration to pursue their pastime;
- a museum, perhaps to reconstruct what a railway was like in the 'good old days';
- a tourist attraction;
- something else;
- some combination of the above?

Given that railways are inherently dangerous places, any top management needs to see safety as its top priority. But after safety, any given railway needs to know what it is trying to do, and recruit leadership who can deliver that vision.

Given that it looks as if lack of income is a problem for a number of lines, it might well be the case that earning money through tourism is the priority. And that may mean that you don't need railway people at the top: you need tourism experts.
 

Flying Phil

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Good points in recent posts and I think they show the complexity of running a heritage railway. Any good manager will have to cope with a very wide range of issues/people/motivations/interests almost every day.....certainly not an easy job! So well done to those who are doing it!
 

YorkshireBear

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I spent 12 years volunteering at my local preserved railway. I recently made the decision to step away for the following reasons:

•Old boys club - the board members were only interested in looking after themselves. The operation was treated like a personal train set and the financial outcomes of galas spoke volumes. Locos would be hired in because the board members wanted them, at huge cost to the railway and hardly anybody would turn up for the galas resulting in a financial loss. Naturally, nobody would be held accountable for such a failing.

•Lack of leadership / Cohesiveness - In my eyes, a good preserved railway has an ex industry professionals leading the way - somebody that knows Transport management and can bond each department and their respective teams together. Sadly at this particular line, the directors did not have such expertise and this shows in the stunted growth and development of the railway over the past 5 years.

•Unreasonably Expectations - Outside of preservation, I’ve got a professional career, a social life and other hobbies. There was a very bad culture at this railway whereby you were treated poorly if you didn’t dedicate every single weekend to volunteering. Sadly, not everybody can dedicate their entire life to a preserved railway.

Sounds very reasonable. Thankfully a lot of what you say seems to have gone from many. I would say ex industry professionals as well as current industry professionals.

What I would say is that the days of lots of men being able to volunteer all weekend every weekend while the wife looked after the kids are long gone. Society does not work like that anymore! And also by taking that attitude you prevent half the population from volunteering!
 

UP13

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Regarding galas, didn't it used to be you just fired up every available home fleet locomotive? I can understand the appeal of hiring in one guest engine as a celebrity but many galas seem to have several.

Tornado, Flying Scotsman will definite bring a profit, an A4 Pacific has the potential to. Most locomotives, especially unnamed ones, won't interest Joe Public.
 

Killingworth

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The reality is that Jo Public, kids and grandparents, love to view trains, especially if they're steam powered. Whenever a steam special is announced the detailed timings are scoured and free viewpoints are sought well before the scheduled time of passing. Still photos, videos and sound recordings are made all along the way.

Meanwhile, the company operating the train may have had difficulty filling the seats. Seats that give no view of the powerful locomotive, be it steam or diesel. Yet lots of people do pay substantial sums to travel, lured by the catering packages and route as much as by the steam power up front.

National Trust, English Heritage and many other organisations trying to maintain historic assets also rely heavily on lots of volunteers. The specialists doing the conservation often have little interest in balance sheets, and sometimes indicate almost resentment towards visitors. But the visitors are needed to buy cups of tea and more souvenirs to help pay for the conservation. Car parking fees, paid for talks and walks. So now they need Visitor Experience Managers, and Business Managers to ensure visitors come and the conservation can be paid for.

The conservation practical people naturally tend to think they are the be all and end all of any conservation group. Unless they're putting their own money in, and in massive amounts, the organisation needs to be as commercially savvy as possible. It's teamwork that's needed, for in a winning team responsibility must be shared equally. That's hard to do when the cafe/restaurant side vie with the shop, and the events want their slice.

I once had responsibility for the finances of a charity event to raise money for a medical project. The organisers got carried away and booked an act (very good and prestigious) that cost well in excess of the ticket sales revenue we obtained. We had some very generous sponsorship that ensured we showed a positive result, but it was only after giving away hundreds of tickets to ensure our top ranking act didn't play to a half empty auditorium.

Railway events can very easily go the same way, or worse. Kids are a pain, but they're the future. Catch em young, get them involved. And ensure Mums, Dads, Grandparents and others pay for them to come for special events, muck in days and the like - and maybe join the group.

*Declaration of interest, I'm a life (and otherwise inactive) member of 3 Heritage Rail groups.
 

Marmaduke

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Probably not and there were awkward questions posed at AGM by some disgruntled shareholders. (this was a few years ago, so I don't know if it is still happening)

You only need to look at the thread "Aysgarth Station - Wensleydale Railway" to get a feel about how emotions run high and the ensuing allocation of funds between projects and funding operations.

The WR sold Aysgarth, probably the largest "jewel" in any of the heritage railway crowns. A place located in a fantastic location, I guess that even the biggest HR's would more than welcome to have.

Anyway, irrespective of which side of the fence you are, Aysgarth was sold because the WR was in a financial hard place and Im sure the decision process to sell whilst hard, was seen by the PLC board as a way to get rid of the debt burden whilst at the same time using the surplus for much needed investment into the infrastructure.

It would appear didn't quire work out like that - The place was sold, half went to the mortgage pay off, then several other "creditors" appeared, resulting in only a very small amount of the headline amounts actually landing for purported projects?

How much went to assist in operating only knows??

The flip side though, is that things do appear to be happening and commercial support is inwards. I suppose if railways like the WR who've ran along on a shoestring budget, suddenly become awash with positive schemes to increase foot fall revenue, the clever bit is to ensure its not then spent on vanity projects and is spent wisely, to ensure continued operation?
 

option

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"Which of our heritage railways have potentially no future?"

Those that haven't achieved anything noteworthy in the past few (5?) years
Those that don't have any major changes actually happening in the next 5 years
Those that don't have a regular customer base & volunteer base
Those that don't have quality facilities & carriages
Those that have less than a half hour round trip (so less than 4miles of track) (unless they actually went from somewhere to somewhere)
Those that go from nowhere to nowhere
Those with too much debt (not the winter overdraft, or a small short-term loan to gain an asset that produces an income)
 

neilmc

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Basically the early ventures into the heritage railway movement had the pick of the crop:

KWVR - huge potential for volunteers and tourists from West Yorkshire, both historical settings and fine walking territory along the line, easy interchange at Keighley
SVR - rail connected to reasonable size towns at both ends and again close to a huge conurbation
ELR - interchange(ish) with Metrolink serving high population, not a great scenic line but makes the best of the stations en route

This could go on, although the NYMR seems to break the rules and get away with it as the line is very long and difficult to get to and well away from sizeable population. What's the key ingredient here? I also wonder how much money is garnered by using such railways for TV and film adaptations, but they have to be convincing and professional.

You can't just go on opening one redundant line after another in remote places which are not tourist hotspots either, and which offer a quick trundle in a shabby DMU on Sundays in August to a buffer stop and back, and, well, that's it. Apart from the assorted line-up of rusty locos awaiting restoration which may never come. Don't forget the narrow-gauge lines with their lower operating costs, families love dinky little trains where you can sit swaying along in open carriages (aka "trucks"!) with steam drifting back into your face, I would rather take my grandkids on the R+ER than to any diesel gala or indeed any standard gauge railway!

I'm not sure though how much an established heritage railway needs to achieve anything significant, if they have adequate motive power, rolling stock, well-kept stations and sufficient volunteers to give a memorable day out. But I fear there's an over-supply for the current demand, and a few may go to the wall.
 

Alanko

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I am sure some purists here will be going 'AAAARRRGGGGHHHH' at this. But if this keeps your heritage line alive, do you have a choice?

I'm not sure what purists want. In other posts I've alluded to my interest in aviation. From my time on discussion forums in that camp I've learned that purists are basically never happy. If you restore one pile of scrap metal to airworthy condition then the purists would rather wish you preserved the other one. In such cases the rarer one is usually the far more tricky to restore aircraft that is full of unobtanium parts and which barely warrants a second glance once it is in the air.

They also get upset when a restored static airframe is displayed at an airfield museum, if the airfield had no history with that type of aircraft. Even if you get the general airframe correct (like the F4 at East Fortune), it isn't the right sort of F4. Or the markings are slightly incorrect, or the shade of grey on the engine cowl is slightly wrong, etc ad nauseum.

You will never please purists. Their encyclopedic knowledge, and willingness to share said knowledge, do make them both remarkable and useful people to have on hand. The flip-side is that nothing is ever quite pure enough to please them. You would struggle to ever turn their visions into financially viable realities. Museums have gone under, and vast aircraft collections (Southend and Strathallan spring to mind) have been split up and sometimes scrapped because the purists were allowed to run the place.

With your heritage railways I imagine you run into the same problems. What is the worst that can happen? Your best engines and rolling stock are spread to the four winds, the bigger but less desirable stuff is scrapped on site and the little stuff is scrapped too?
 
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