How many of our Heritage Railways are in trouble?

[bramling]

Perhaps you could book & pay for a whole carriage for yourself so not to drive another heritage railway under?

Families spend money. Grumpy old gits who want their own compartment do not.

I may not quite fit into the grumpy old git category, however I can be quite a big spender in the shops, particularly on books.

This is another area where some railways need to up their game, who wants to buy a book that’s been stored in a damp place and had hundreds of clumsy fingers rifling through it?

 

[bramling]

And the families probably get annoyed with the enthusiasts who insist on standing up/leaning out blocking the view for everyone else whilst they insist on filming/photographing the whole journey.
“What was the view like?”
“Mainly it was some grubby old bloke’s butt crack”

Point proven then? Ensure there’s sufficient space so people can spread out, keeping everyone happy. Happy people will repeat their experience.

 

[bramling]

I'm reminded of an article in the Ffestiniog Railway Society's quarterly magazine long ago: pondering the issue of children travelling, vis-a-vis enthusiasts who wish to enjoy the journey, photograph, etc., without too much distraction / disruption. The article essentially discussed this matter seriously, but with a leavening of humour -- it had the wonderful title of "Kiddies, try the prison coach".

The Ffestiniog is actually one of the better ones in this respect. They run fairly long trains, and often provide one or two historic carriages on the Ffestiniog end to keep the enthusiasts happy and provide extra capacity. We’ve certainly had many extremely enjoyable journeys in the “lock-ups”.

For something like the Welsh Highland where it’s a very long journey it really makes a difference.

 

[John Luxton]

Without it's changed in the last couple of years the field is hired in from a local farmer (at quite a cost) for the events and, I suspect, the residents on the road down to the station would kick up a fuss if it was used as a car park on a regular basis.

Thanks I wasn't aware who owned the field. As it appeared to be used on occasions by the railway I presumed it was railway property which was sometimes let out to a farmer as animals are often seen in it from time to time. I couldn't see why the residents would complain as it is a public road and as it stands must get a bit frustrated by the enthusiasts who park down there already. being able to take the vehicles off the road might actually be better.

 

[John Luxton]

In a perfect world yes! However in the real world compartments are a practical solution. However if one is paying what is now quite a bit of money for a ticket, I kind of expect a compartment to myself.

Now someone will no doubt say this is unreasonable. Fine - in which case there's a high likelihood I simply won't bother travelling. Unlike the proper network where people may well *need* to travel from A to B, heritage railways are very much a choice. If people experience a day out from hell then they won't repeat it again, which will represent lost income, taking us back to heritage railways struggling.

I can see where you are coming from.

Personally as someone who has spent over 33 years teaching other people's children, but who has chosen not to have any of my own, I do like to escape their presence. I however, I do recognise that today's youngsters are potentially tomorrows enthusiasts and volunteers. It is not only children who can be annoying though it is sometimes parents who don't realise that they are the adults and should set an example and expect their children to be have. Some years ago I travelled up the Snaefell Mountain Railway with parents who were interacting with their teenage children as though they were teenagers themselves. Wasn't a pleasant experience.

What we really need is for more heritage railways to offer first class to those prepared to pay a bit more and quite often, though not always, escape the children.

Unfortunately in recent years there appears, as on the national rail network, to have been a decline in First Class provision. The Ffestiniog Railway for example used to have first class accommodation located around the train with a choice of compartments as well as the observation car. However, in the last three years or so only the observation car option is available.

Llangollen Railway used to offer first class - but that appeared to fizzle out many years ago. Tal-y-llyn still seem to offer it on most trains, but I think G&WR have now phased it out.

My other passion apart from railways is ships.

Due to the fact that the nearest shipping routes to my home serve the Isle of Man - I, and several other local enthusiasts, have chosen to be members of the Executive Travel Club due to the fact that no children are allowed, there are free sandwiches and drinks - including beer! I have been a member now for over 20 years.

It is rather good and offers what you want but in a maritime context!

John

 

[John Luxton]

I find it is not usually the kids that are the problem, but the clueless parents, many of whom allow kids to do whatever they like, including putting their little feet on seats. This applies equally in restaurants, pubs, shops and anywhere else parents take them. Not just heritage railways, but I know of other organisations who have concerns whether the smartphone/social media obsessed generation will have any appetite to volunteer in the way we have, for all our adult lives. Having volunteered trackside, it is difficult to enforce the no phone use rule (except emergency or operational matters) to some who must find out how many "likes" they might have had in the last 5 minutes.

Feets on seats? - Do what Merseyrail does and fine them!

As for social media obsession - last year I took a trip on the Tal-yllyn Railway - I boarded at Abergynolwyn as it is more convenient for me. However, there was a family on board where the son and daughter kept their head burried in their phones for the whole journey to Tywyn, presumably they had done the same on the way up too? I was wondering what the point of the family day out was!

John

 

[bramling]

Feets on seats? - Do what Merseyrail does and fine them!

As for social media obsession - last year I took a trip on the Tal-yllyn Railway - I boarded at Abergynolwyn as it is more convenient for me. However, there was a family on board where the son and daughter kept their head burried in their phones for the whole journey to Tywyn, presumably they had done the same on the way up too? I was wondering what the point of the family day out was!

John

I do wonder what the point is of a lot of these family days out. Welsh Highland is a problem one, stereotypical family will turn up and buy their ticket to "the other end", quite probably moaning about the high price in the process. By the time the train had got about half an hour into the journey the children are highly likely to be bored, yet they've still got another 3 or more hours of travelling to do, without a massive amount of time in between. Indeed I've seen many bored adults on the Welsh Highland.

Fortunately the lock-ups tend to be fairly empty, so that offers a pleasant experience escaping all of this, albeit with rather less comfortable seats. I think many people avoid these as there's no access to a toilet.

 

[bramling]

I can see where you are coming from.

Personally as someone who has spent over 33 years teaching other people's children, but who has chosen not to have any of my own, I do like to escape their presence. I however, I do recognise that today's youngsters are potentially tomorrows enthusiasts and volunteers. It is not only children who can be annoying though it is sometimes parents who don't realise that they are the adults and should set an example and expect their children to be have. Some years ago I travelled up the Snaefell Mountain Railway with parents who were interacting with their teenage children as though they were teenagers themselves. Wasn't a pleasant experience.

What we really need is for more heritage railways to offer first class to those prepared to pay a bit more and quite often, though not always, escape the children.

Unfortunately in recent years there appears, as on the national rail network, to have been a decline in First Class provision. The Ffestiniog Railway for example used to have first class accommodation located around the train with a choice of compartments as well as the observation car. However, in the last three years or so only the observation car option is available.

Llangollen Railway used to offer first class - but that appeared to fizzle out many years ago. Tal-y-llyn still seem to offer it on most trains, but I think G&WR have now phased it out.

My other passion apart from railways is ships.

Due to the fact that the nearest shipping routes to my home serve the Isle of Man - I, and several other local enthusiasts, have chosen to be members of the Executive Travel Club due to the fact that no children are allowed, there are free sandwiches and drinks - including beer! I have been a member now for over 20 years.

It is rather good and offers what you want but in a maritime context!

John

Agree first class is very much a good thing, although again if spending more then I expect to get a pleasant experience. IME some of the railways who do offer first class are a bit lax on enforcing it.

Also agreed that it's by no means just kids who can be a pain in the arse. ISTR a trip on the G&WSR where a group of oldies spend the entire journey talking loudly and graphically about their various ailments, treatments and medications. Hardly a quality day out being subjected to that.

 

[talerddig]

I don't think there's necessarily a problem with declining passengers numbers - most times recently when I've been on preserved railways (normally mid week, so not exactly peak time) they're more often than not busy. In fact, often busy to the point of being a turn-off. It's one thing sitting in a carriage full of screaming kids on a proper train when going somewhere, but in my view this isn't acceptable on a heritage railway when one is supposed to be going for a pleasurable journey.

I suspect the railways doing well are those which appeal to the oldies, especially the coach tour brigade. To be fair I'd have thought Llangollen would fit into that category, but perhaps that area is simply too saturated with such railways (Talyllyn, Ffestiniog, Welsh Highland, Vale of Rheidol, Welshpool & Llanfair) and most of these offer particular features which appeal to the oldies like tea rooms and gift shops, Llangollen falls a little short in that respect.

VOR is an hour's drive from Tywyn, nearly two from Porthmadog and nearly an hour from Welshpool. That's rather a large area that is 'saturated'...!

 

[talerddig]

Perhaps you could book & pay for a whole carriage for yourself so not to drive another heritage railway under?

Families spend money. Grumpy old gits who want their own compartment do not.

On my railway family days are very profitable. Enthusiast galas have empty catering facilities and low shop sales!

I totally agree and neither are we 'plagued' with 'biddies' wanting tea and gifts. I like tea and I occasionally buy gifts, it doesn't mean I have to change sex, add twenty years on my life and travel by coach to do so! There's a whole cross section of people who want to visit to experience the railway - families, individuals, people from the UK and abroad, dogs, people with needs, enthusiasts. It doesn't matter, they're all customers. If you don't think that, then that's a downward slope. You get screaming kids who get bored on any public transport medium. As red dragon kindly points out there are other ways. Pay for a whole coach, go on a bespoke railway tour, charter a train, go on a photo charter...

 

[reddragon]

I totally agree and neither are we 'plagued' with 'biddies' wanting tea and gifts. I like tea and I occasionally buy gifts, it doesn't mean I have to change sex, add twenty years on my life and travel by coach to do so! There's a whole cross section of people who want to visit to experience the railway - families, individuals, people from the UK and abroad, dogs, people with needs, enthusiasts. It doesn't matter, they're all customers. If you don't think that, then that's a downward slope. You get screaming kids who get bored on any public transport medium. As red dragon kindly points out there are other ways. Pay for a whole coach, go on a bespoke railway tour, charter a train, go on a photo charter...

To succeed a heritage railway needs all sorts of customers. Each type have different spending profiles and issues. There are certain types in each group who are freeloaders or obnoxious, but they are a tiny minority

 

[xc170]

Hmm, maybe we need "Enthusiast" carriages and "Normal" carriages.

I have to say, I like taking my little boy to preserved railways but I'd much rather be surrounded by families with young children laughing, joking and spending money on catering rather than being surrounded by stuffy old enthusiasts with questionably personal hygiene.

 

[ian1944]

Hmm, maybe we need "Enthusiast" carriages and "Normal" carriages.

I have to say, I like taking my little boy to preserved railways but I'd much rather be surrounded by families with young children laughing, joking and spending money on catering rather than being surrounded by stuffy old enthusiasts with questionably personal hygiene.

My personal hygiene is OK, but certainly I'm an old enthusiast. I think that I'm a strange case, in that I want heritage railways to survive but don't do much in the way of ongoing direct support. When I retired I joined the Bo'ness and Kinneil as a life member, so feel that as they've got my (>£100) money up front I can ignore their special appeals for funding, particularly as, until increasing infirmity arose, I did voluntary track work and oddments like carpark marshalling on Thomas and Santa days. Also, I get my members' mag (Blastpipe) online rather than their incurring postage charges. So I wish them well and, when there with family, make a point of using the caff (highly recommended, as is the museum and the locomotive owners' sales coach - is that still there, it's a while since I've been?). It seems likely that the SRPS Railtours income, as well as the distance from any comparable preserved railway while being in a fairly densely-populated part of the world, insulates them from the financial difficulties which are the subject of this thread.

 

[John Luxton]

The following has appeared on the Llangollen Railway FB page this evening:

"Llangollen railway have some great news, we have had some great donations from our members and share holders which means we do not have to enter in to a CVA and we are now in a good positionsupport."uld like to thank all our share holders and members for their fantastic support."

 

[Lloyds siding]

The following has appeared on the Llangollen Railway FB page this evening:

"Llangollen railway have some great news, we have had some great donations from our members and share holders which means we do not have to enter in to a CVA and we are now in a good position. "Would like to thank all our share holders and members for their fantastic support."

I'm astonished they've managed it. The begging letter asked you to make out your cheque to 'Llangollen Railway LLC ltd' which is not the legal name of the company, didn't give you an address to send the cheque to (the letter was unheaded...and even worse...unsigned by anyone...such as a responsible officer of the company..so probably illegal under Companies Acts). I did wonder if the entire board had resigned and the letter had been hastily put together by an overenthusiastic supporter....it certainly looked hastily put together. I was not impressed...but did give them some money (thanks to a favourable lottery ticket that weekend!)

 

[reddragon]

The GWSR has another bank slip costing at least £500k that it cannot fund, Gotherington this time.

There is a risk trains cannot be run unless the money can be raised.

The railway is not in trouble but could get into trouble if this climate emergency weather continues.

 

[LowLevel]

The GWSR has another bank slip costing at least £500k that it cannot fund, Gotherington this time.

There is a risk trains cannot be run unless the money can be raised.

The railway is not in trouble but could get into trouble if this climate emergency weather continues.

Their permanent way formation has always been a bit dubious though - it's what caused BR to shut the line in the first place.

 

[John Luxton]

I'm astonished they've managed it. The begging letter asked you to make out your cheque to 'Llangollen Railway LLC ltd' which is not the legal name of the company, didn't give you an address to send the cheque to (the letter was unheaded...and even worse...unsigned by anyone...such as a responsible officer of the company..so probably illegal under Companies Acts). I did wonder if the entire board had resigned and the letter had been hastily put together by an overenthusiastic supporter....it certainly looked hastily put together. I was not impressed...but did give them some money (thanks to a favourable lottery ticket that weekend!)

I received an acknowledgement signed Liz, and I noticed the post on FB was from Liz McGuinness the company Chair so presume one and the same. As for address I suppose most shareholders know the company's registered address. Perhaps it was urgency which led to the irregularities?

 

[SquireBev]

I don't want to be nasty, but a lot of the preserved railway setups in the last couple of decades are running on any old freight line in remote locations, with cast-off rolling stock, no steam locos, a very sparse service (not enough volunteers) and nothing very much to see at either end. They will ALWAYS struggle, hardy enthusiasts might drive up to these places to give them the once-over but with not being able to do credible Thomas Days or Santa Specials to draw in the families I cannot see them ever thriving. I would LOVE to be proved wrong though!

This came to mind when visiting the Ecclesbourne Valley Railway over half term. I'm sure they're doing their best, but it's not much of a day out. One trip there and back again on a fairly tatty DMU, and you've done it all.

While they're not in the middle of nowhere, public transport in that part of Derbyshire isn't all that brilliant, and although they do meet the mainline railway at one end, services start from the other, and don't necessarily connect very well with mainline trains.

Peak Rail is only up the road, and Butterley isn't far either, so there's obviously a bit of competition in this area, and sadly I don't think they're going to keep up. We bought our tickets at a discount through Groupon, which is itself often an indicator of a business struggling to survive, and I feel if we'd paid the full price we'd have come away feeling ripped off.

 

[xc170]

This came to mind when visiting the Ecclesbourne Valley Railway over half term. I'm sure they're doing their best, but it's not much of a day out. One trip there and back again on a fairly tatty DMU, and you've done it all.

While they're not in the middle of nowhere, public transport in that part of Derbyshire isn't all that brilliant, and although they do meet the mainline railway at one end, services start from the other, and don't necessarily connect very well with mainline trains.

Peak Rail is only up the road, and Butterley isn't far either, so there's obviously a bit of competition in this area, and sadly I don't think they're going to keep up. We bought our tickets at a discount through Groupon, which is itself often an indicator of a business struggling to survive, and I feel if we'd paid the full price we'd have come away feeling ripped off.

I disagree on a couple of points here.

DMU Presentation - I've always found the EVR fleet to be one of the smarter operators of 1st Gen DMU's, although they did have a blue 101 set that was looking tired the last time I visited.

Location - I don't understand how it can be improved, at Duffield, it connects with the mainline for an hourly train service plus a frequent bus service into Derby and at Wirksworth, there is an hourly bus to Derby and Matlock with other local services also serving Matlock thrown in too!

Peak Rail - I always consider Peak Rail to be the poor relation to the EVR, although fairly local to me, It's never really been attractive enough to actually visit, Butterly, when I visited last year came across as quite run down, while it was interesting as an enthusiast, it doesn't seem very attractive to normal families. If I was to take my non enthusiast wife and son for a day out at one of the above lines, it would have to be the EVR.

 

[SquireBev]

Perhaps we caught them on a bad day - it was the first operating day of the year after all - but the bubble car we were on was pretty rough. There were seat cushions detached from their frames, several doors with notices saying they're out of use, internal panelling rotting away in places, and the guard's van section just seemed to be full of old Christmas decorations and bits of carpet.

 

[duffield]

Perhaps we caught them on a bad day - it was the first operating day of the year after all - but the bubble car we were on was pretty rough. There were seat cushions detached from their frames, several doors with notices saying they're out of use, internal panelling rotting away in places, and the guard's van section just seemed to be full of old Christmas decorations and bits of carpet.

I've generally found the rolling stock to be in good nick, and the mainline connections very convenient. Sunday is a bit less convenient sometimes but that's because the NR trains are only every 2 hours, not the fault of the EVR.

Edit: Just to make it clear, despite my user name, I don't live in Duffield and I don't work on the EVR!

 

[xc170]

Perhaps we caught them on a bad day - it was the first operating day of the year after all - but the bubble car we were on was pretty rough. There were seat cushions detached from their frames, several doors with notices saying they're out of use, internal panelling rotting away in places, and the guard's van section just seemed to be full of old Christmas decorations and bits of carpet.

I've used all of the EVR DMU fleet, the 122, when I last saw it, was in an okay condition, I note it's owned by a private individual so maybe the EVR are limited to what they can do with it.

 

[mpthomson]

The following has appeared on the Llangollen Railway FB page this evening:

"Llangollen railway have some great news, we have had some great donations from our members and share holders which means we do not have to enter in to a CVA and we are now in a good positionsupport."uld like to thank all our share holders and members for their fantastic support."

I hope they realise that they still need to look seriously at how the line is run, and don't just think that they can carry on normal jogging....

 

[43096]

I hope they realise that they still need to look seriously at how the line is run, and don't just think that they can carry on normal jogging....

Quite. It's one thing raising funds for capital expenditure work, quite something else if you have to pass round the begging bowl for operational costs. If you're doing the latter, you're in big trouble.

 

[alexl92]

This might be a question for a new, dedicated thread but can anyone in-the-know shed light on what's actually been going on at Llangollen recently?

There was the fallout with the 5551 The Unknown Warrior contract, which saw that loco being transferred to the Princess Royal Class Locomotive Trust and the boiler to HBSS Ltd, then the D49 contract was cancelled by the owners becuase they were concerned about the noises coming from the management at Llangollen about their ability to fulfil the contract, then there was this appeal and the threat that they'd have to sell either Hudswell Clarke Jennifer (which, other than the time it spent under repair after it broke at Wensleydale seems to be permanently sent out on loan elsewhere) or Kitson Austin's No.1 - or both. How have they got into this position?

I heard mention that the extension to Corwen had really affected their income stream, which makes sense, but it seems to be the contract work of the engineering arm of the railway that's suffering the most?

 

[d9009alycidon]

My personal hygiene is OK, but certainly I'm an old enthusiast. I think that I'm a strange case, in that I want heritage railways to survive but don't do much in the way of ongoing direct support. When I retired I joined the Bo'ness and Kinneil as a life member, so feel that as they've got my (>£100) money up front I can ignore their special appeals for funding, particularly as, until increasing infirmity arose, I did voluntary track work and oddments like carpark marshalling on Thomas and Santa days. Also, I get my members' mag (Blastpipe) online rather than their incurring postage charges. So I wish them well and, when there with family, make a point of using the caff (highly recommended, as is the museum and the locomotive owners' sales coach - is that still there, it's a while since I've been?). It seems likely that the SRPS Railtours income, as well as the distance from any comparable preserved railway while being in a fairly densely-populated part of the world, insulates them from the financial difficulties which are the subject of this thread.

I would agree that the SRPS is probably one of the better run preservation groups. The only weakness I feel about Bo'ness is that it is very "one-ended" since the Mine at Birkhill closed, i.e all the attractions are at the one end, so if you don't want to pay for a run on the train you can still see everything on the site. This is different from say the Midland Railway Centre (another of my favourites) where unless you get on a train you cannot see the museum and other attractions. Think the SRPS would see more "bums on seats" if there was something to go and see. Of course if they had managed to get the interchange station with BR it would have been a totally different story

 

[Maybach]

I suppose the answer to this question is now, sadly, all of them. Appeals are coming left, right and centre from heritage lines desperate for donations during this difficult period. However, there is a dedicated thread for all this within the COVID-19 Sub-Forum:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/coronavirus-virus-effect-on-heritage-lines-summer-2020.201604/

 

[AGF]

I believe the Watercress line were very well compensated for the line closure into Alton last year, though how much they lost in that year they couldn’t use Alton, I don’t know. They are also lucky they had The Flying Scotsman when they did... a couple of weeks later and Corona Virus would have played a hand and reduced or removed all profits from that venture.

 

[reddragon]

The GWsR have raised £30,400 out of the £250k needed for the embankment repairs in 5 days

https://www.gwsr.com/Emergency_Embankment_Appeal.html

The GWSR needs URGENT Help
Major landslip at Gotherington endangers future of the line
Funds dry up because of the Coronavirus effect