How many steam locos did BR withdraw under the 1955 Modernisation Plan

[steambuffer]

Hello,

it was stated by British Railways that they had 16,000 steam locomotives to scrap under the 1955 modernisation plan, but has anyone calculated the exact number, as this seems to be an approximation.

Has anyone made an accurate calculation?

 

[randyrippley]

It would be impossible to calculate as locos were built / rebuilt / scrapped / reinstated on a daily basis, with paper records weeks or months after the event
That figure is probably as close as you'll get

 

[Altfish]

Hello,

it was stated by British Railways that they had 16,000 steam locomotives to scrap under the 1955 modernisation plan, but has anyone calculated the exact number, as this seems to be an approximation.

Has anyone made an accurate calculation?

The modernisation plan was before BR stopped building steam locos; so how you quantify the locos that were scrapped because of the plan is dubious. I suppose if you counted all the steam engines in 1955 then added all those build after, then deducted 3 (VofR) that would be a reasonable estimate.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

I have a 'Facts and Figures about British Railways' booklet published by BR in 1955 which gives the position at the end of 1954 as 18,420 standard-gauge steam locomotives and 5 narrow-gauge (3 VoR and 2 W & L). This is an extract from the BR Annual Report. Withdrawals occurred rapidly during 1955, and onwards, with the steep decline of freight traffic after the catastrophic 1955 ASLEF strike and acceleration of the pre-Beeching branch-line closure programme.

 

[Journeyman]

It's well known that BR's records of the number of steam engines scrapped doesn't match what happened in reality - there's quite a few discrepancies, so the total number is going to be very tricky to calculate.

What happened to the ones unaccounted for? (don't mention the S*******c R*****e!)

 

[steambuffer]

Thanks to everyone for a rapid response.

Sir Felix has been able to quote the number of locos existing as at 1954 (presumably 31st December, when the census would have been issued) as being 18,420. To this number, we must add all the BR Standard steam classes which were newly built between 1955-60 and then deduct all the other steam locomotives that were scrapped in the same period.

This is going to be a Herculean task that I have given myself!

Regards, Steambuffer

 

[Journeyman]

Make sure you include the S*******c R*****e in your calculations.

 

[steambuffer]

It's well known that BR's records of the number of steam engines scrapped doesn't match what happened in reality - there's quite a few discrepancies, so the total number is going to be very tricky to calculate.

What happened to the ones unaccounted for? (don't mention the S*******c R*****e!)

Doh!

Now we will have to start another thread on the S.....c R......e !! (don't mention the war). I was talking to a work colleague only last week, about this. Google RAF Corsham and Codename Burlington, for discussion and interesting photographs.

Steambuffer

 

[Journeyman]

Doh!

Now we will have to start another thread on the S.....c R......e !! (don't mention the war). I was talking to a work colleague only last week, about this. Google RAF Corsham and Codename Burlington, for discussion and interesting photographs.

Steambuffer

Ssshh! We've said too much already!

I'm going to go into hiding before MI5 come looking for me.

 

[6Gman]

The BR Annual Reports give an annual figure for locomotives in stock.

Just use that.

 

[randyrippley]

The BR Annual Reports give an annual figure for locomotives in stock.

Just use that.

That won't include locos that were on shed but officially condemned / withdrawn - they could take years to scrap, or may even get reinstated
Probably also doesn't include departmental stock

Also at nationalisation were any of the companies still using duplicate/shadow loco numbers for stock that was officially fully depreciated, supposedly replaced but still in stock? If so they may not have appeared on any asset lists

 

[Journeyman]

That won't include locos that were on shed but officially condemned / withdrawn - they could take years to scrap, or may even get reinstated
Probably also doesn't include departmental stock

Also, the overall figure will include steam locos added to stock until 1960, so you'll have to take that into account. I know I've joked about the Strategic Reserve, but in all seriousness, that conspiracy theory came about because BR's figures for withdrawal and scrapping of steam locos were not accurate, and frequently didn't match enthusiasts' observations, hence the wishful thinking that loads of locos were secreted away somewhere.

 

[randyrippley]

The joke about the reserve may be closer to the truth than you realise
There was an official diesel strategic reserve of around 100 withdrawn locos in the 1970s and BR had to get government permission to ditch it when they wanted to clear the decks of the last class 40s and 24s
Rather than being 100 identified locos, it appeared to be a timing buffer so that as certain loco types were withdrawn they were held back from scrap for a timed period.
It wouldn't surprise me if the scrapping of some steam loco types was retarded in a similar way

 

[Clarence Yard]

Ok - here’s the maths.

18420 capital stock standard gauge steam locos as at 31/12/54.

Add 506 BR standard design built 1955-60
Add 27 GWR design built 1955/6
Add 3 LMS 8F ex WD in 1957
Add 1 LBSCR terrier returned to capital stock on closure of Brighton Works.

So the total of capital stock steam locos existing from 31/12/54 was 18957.

There were 35 service stock locos existing as at 31/12/54. Taking away the aforementioned Terrier at Brighton, that left 34 to replace. There were, of course, additions to service stock from capital stock in the years leading up to 1968.

As at 31/12/54, there would have been a few engines withdrawn in the latter few months of 1954 still hanging around at Works (locos were usually condemned at Works in those days) but they would be quickly disposed of - scrapping after withdrawal was usually fairly swift, unlike later.

 

[steambuffer]

It's well known that BR's records of the number of steam engines scrapped doesn't match what happened in reality - there's quite a few discrepancies, so the total number is going to be very tricky to calculate.

What happened to the ones unaccounted for? (don't mention the S*******c R*****e!)

Hello Journeyman,

I think that the "secret reserve" of steam locomotives is discounted now and all locos are accounted for, having either been scrapped or preserved. I went to a lecture once, which declared that any "secret reserve" is already hiding in plain sight and exists on the UK preserved railways. Any UK government could use their emergency powers to requisition any locomotives in full working order, together with experienced crews, spare parts and maintenance facilities to operate trains in times of desperate need.

Steambuffer

 

[Journeyman]

Hello Journeyman,

I think that the "secret reserve" of steam locomotives is discounted now and all locos are accounted for, having either been scrapped or preserved. I went to a lecture once, which declared that any "secret reserve" is already hiding in plain sight and exists on the UK preserved railways. Any UK government could use their emergency powers to requisition any locomotives in full working order, together with experienced crews, spare parts and maintenance facilities to operate trains in times of desperate need.

Steambuffer

Oh, I know, it never existed. I was just talking about it because inconsistencies and inaccuracies in BR's figures led to a lot of wishful thinking, and make it harder to answer the original question.

It's one of those persistent myths that won't go away. Every now and again, I'm tempted to build a fantasy post-nuclear model railway running through the ruins of Britain, with Strategic Reserve locos hauling armoured trains...

 

[randyrippley]

If a strategic reserve existed after the official end of steam, where were the strategic coal reserves kept?

 

[Cowley]

If a strategic reserve existed after the official end of steam, where were the strategic coal reserves kept?

Outside Esso garages.

 

[Bevan Price]

The RCTS Locomotive Stock Books give end of year locomotive totals for many years. Figures for years before 1948 are the totals for (LMSR + LNER + GWR + SR)
Steam Locos (including narrow gauge):
Dec. 1922: 23,890
1933: 20,807
1938: 19,577
1947: 20,023
1951: 19,503
1954: 18,420
1955: 17,955
1956: 17,522
1957: 16,954
1958: 16,103
1959: 14,457
1960: 13,276
1961: 11,691
1962: 8767
1963: 7050
1964: 4973
1965: 2987
1966: 1689
1967: 362
1968: 3 (VOR locos)

174 new steam locos were built in 1955, reducing to 15 locos in 1959, and the final 3 in 1960 (92218/89/20).

And for comparison, diesel loco total for some years:
Dec. 1954: 316
1955: 452
1959: 1799
1962: 3683
1964: 4462
1966: 4961
1968: 4325

 

[randyrippley]

Were there really 636 diesels scrapped 1966-68?
Presumably mainly early shunters - would you regard that as part of the modernisation plan?

 

[Bevan Price]

Were there really 636 diesels scrapped 1966-68?
Presumably mainly early shunters - would you regard that as part of the modernisation plan?

Probably a consequence of the post-Beeching closures, the move to Liner & MGR services, the closure of many goods yards / marshalling yards, and the big reductions in branch line "trip" workings. Plus a start on getting rid of "Unsuccessful" main line diesels.

And to add to that, more than 636 diesel locos were withdrawn, because they were still building new locos, including 43 Class 20s built in 1967, plus a few Class 47s. The 50 Class 50s were not included in the 1968 total, because at time they were merely "on hire" to BR, so not part of what they owned.

 

[steambuffer]

Hello Bevan,

This is all very interesting.

Is this RCTS listing just the serviceable "capital stock" locomotives, or are condemned locos included?

Also, are the RCTS figures for diesel loco scrapping available for the years not mentioned between 1955 and 1968?

Regards.

Steambuffer

 

[steambuffer]

As an aside, I have studied the complex history of the LMS-designed 8F locos that were build for the War Department in WW2 and sent overseas, some of which returned to the UK in the 1950's and were given numbers in the BR series. I have attached my file.

Regards
Steambuffer

 

[Snow1964]

Were there really 636 diesels scrapped 1966-68?
Presumably mainly early shunters - would you regard that as part of the modernisation plan?

Not all were scrapped, many of the early shutters were sold to industrial premises

Many of the troublesome mainline diesels went, especially the trip working size (generally 800-1400 HP) as traffic they were built for went

Of course not all the steam locos were scrapped (or sold for scrap), some went to other railways, eg London Transport took some ex GW Pannier Tanks

 

[70014IronDuke]

Were there really 636 diesels scrapped 1966-68?
Presumably mainly early shunters - would you regard that as part of the modernisation plan?

Must say, 636 does seem an awful lot!

We had the D95xx withdrawn almost as they came out of Swindon works, of course. Most (all?) were sold to the likes of British Steel Corp.
D57xx - just 20 locos
D61xx
D63xx - not sure if any had gone by 1968?
D60x (5 locos?)
D85xx
10000/1, 10201-3
And I suppose a lot of those pre-war LMS and SR shunters, but not sure how many there were of those.
Had they begun to scrap the NBL D8xx Warships by 1968?

 

[randyrippley]

class 14 56 1968-1970
class 15 44 1968-1971
class 16 10 1968
class 17 117 1968-1971
class 21 38 1967-1968
class 22 58 1967-1972
class 23 10 1968-1971
class 28 10 1968-1971 (4 in 1968)
class 29 20 1967-1968
class 41 5 1967
class 42 38 1968-1972 (3 1968)
class 43 33 1969-1971

so 428 mainline diesels withdrawn in the four years 1968-1972, - probably around 25% in the first year.
Means we're looking for ~ 500 shunters scrapped in 1968, hard to believe

 

[Cowley]

Quite a lot of class 04s taken out of BR service around then. Although nowhere near that number.

 

[Altfish]

Means we're looking for ~ 500 shunters scrapped in 1968, hard to believe

Aren't we talking about the difference between 636 and 428 - that's nearer 200 rather than 500?? Or have I misunderstood?

 

[Clarence Yard]

The RCTS list the following diesel withdrawals from Capital Stock for 1966 to 1968:

1966 - 18
1967 - 286
1968 - 422

“Main Line”, as opposed to coupled type 1/shunters were as follows;

1966 - 4 (3 accident, 1 LMS design)
1967 - 44 (2 accident, rest start of National Traction Plan withdrawals)
1968 - 129 (2 accident, rest National Traction Plan)

Although there were odd diesel withdrawals before 1966, they were primarily accident damage or pre-nationalisation design weed-outs. 1966 was the first year when the BR built shunters started to be withdrawn in earnest.

Although quite a few shunters went into industrial use, the majority were scrapped.

 

[randyrippley]

Aren't we talking about the difference between 636 and 428 - that's nearer 200 rather than 500?? Or have I misunderstood?

that 428 was over the four years 1968-72, only around 25% of those went in 1968, so around 107, meaning you need another 500+ to make up the numbers