How much longer will social distancing go on for in the UK?

[GusB]

Obviously those people who get more severe symptoms than average with a cold should stay at home. But that's because they are unfit to work. But what's being suggested here is that anyone suffering from a cold has a duty to others to remain at home. Quite frankly that is preposterous. The vast majority of people who suffer from a cold are not unfit to work or go shopping and they do not need to remain at home. They don't, in my experience go "wandering around the place sneezing and dripping snot." The majority of them try to keep their infections to themselves but it is simply not possible to do so entirely. The vast majority of people who might catch that cold will not be so ill that they will be unfit to work or go shopping or need to remain at home. It is completely unreasonable to expect someone who is suffering from a relatively minor ailment to isolate themselves from everybody else. It's unfortunate that some people suffer more from colds than others. It's also unfortunate that it is they who will have to keep themselves safe and not rely on everybody else to do it for them. I despair at some of the views in this country that everybody must be protected from everything - even down to a common cold. It cannot happen and the sooner that is accepted the sooner we can move on from this ridiculous state of affairs.

Sorry, but from my own personal experience there are people who do wander around the place sneezing and dripping snot. They're either the kind who like to boast that they've never had a day off in their lives due to sickness but fail to take into account the impact they have on the people around them, or they're people who are more susceptible to such illnesses and are terrified of calling in sick because of disciplinary repercussions. I've lost count of the number of times when I've been sitting next to a colleague that should really have been in bed, but they soldier on regardless because one more incident of absence will lead them down the path to a warning. This, coupled with the fact that sick pay is often only paid out after a few days of illness, leads people who really ought to be recuperating back to the workplace prematurely.

I've been in the position where I've wanted to send a member of staff home because they were utterly miserable with cold/flu symptoms and completely useless as a result, but because they'd had a similar occurrence of illness not that long ago, they were terrified that it would lead to them being dismissed.

 

[BJames]

Very much agreed. And in simple terms shutting yourself away from being exposed to all the colds/bugs/viruses in general circulation will not make you healthier.
Quite the opposite in fact.

I meant to say this earlier too. It weakens the immune system.

Possibly there needs to be some reconsideration of policy regarding attendance and being a bit more flexible, especially if you are actually ill but forcing yourself to come in just to "be brave" or "be a team player" - but this just makes it far too easy for someone to say "I have a cold, sorry I won't be able to come in today" rather than coming to work. Yes, working from home is and will be more prolific now but not in all industries and it is unfair for those who will have to pick up the slack. In industries where you can't work from home, you'd literally be sitting at home watching TV all day because you have a runny nose and a sore throat. Makes no sense really.

When I was at school, if I had to take a day off every time I'd had a cold I don't think I would have done well enough to get into university! Attendance is important, and the reason a cold is different to covid is clear - pass on a cold from a child to a parent and they won't die from it or even get seriously ill. Even with covid this risk is incredibly low anyway but that is another story.

Edit: good point in the post above though about sick pay - nobody will be taking more time off work without better sick pay.

 

[bramling]

I meant to say this earlier too. It weakens the immune system.

Possibly there needs to be some reconsideration of policy regarding attendance and being a bit more flexible, especially if you are actually ill but forcing yourself to come in just to "be brave" or "be a team player" - but this just makes it far too easy for someone to say "I have a cold, sorry I won't be able to come in today" rather than coming to work. Yes, working from home is and will be more prolific now but not in all industries and it is unfair for those who will have to pick up the slack. In industries where you can't work from home, you'd literally be sitting at home watching TV all day because you have a runny nose and a sore throat. Makes no sense really.

When I was at school, if I had to take a day off every time I'd had a cold I don't think I would have done well enough to get into university! Attendance is important, and the reason a cold is different to covid is clear - pass on a cold from a child to a parent and they won't die from it or even get seriously ill. Even with covid this risk is incredibly low anyway but that is another story.

Edit: good point in the post above though about sick pay - nobody will be taking more time off work without better sick pay.

I’d say that’s pretty realistic. No one likes to inherit a cold, however it’s a fact of life that we all do from time to time. We can’t expect to be insulated from everything, and getting a cold off someone whilst mildly unpleasant isn’t generally dangerous. If everyone with a cold stayed off work then we’d have serious shortages of people over winter months.

Hopefully “got a cold, stay at home, save the NHS” won’t now be some kind of norm.

 

[farleigh]

I’d say that’s pretty realistic. No one likes to inherit a cold, however it’s a fact of life that we all do from time to time. We can’t expect to be insulated from everything, and getting a cold off someone whilst mildly unpleasant isn’t generally dangerous. If everyone with a cold stayed off work then we’d have serious shortages of people over winter months.

Hopefully “got a cold, stay at home, save the NHS” won’t now be some kind of norm.

Good post

 

[Jonny]

As soon as it becomes clear that a vaccine will work, I expect it will be "when 80% of the population has either been vaccinated or proven to have antibodies".

It appears the same refuseniks are now building resistance to taking a vaccine, so I fear this could be many years.

The problem that the UK has, in legislative terms, is that the powers that have been predominantly used are generally around Section 45 of the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984 (c. 22) which in its amended/current form (Section 45E) explicitly prohibits forced vaccination.

(Edit: missing link https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/22/section/45E)

45E Medical treatment
(1)Regulations under section 45B or 45C may not include provision requiring a person to undergo medical treatment.
(2)“ Medical treatment ” includes vaccination and other prophylactic treatment.

Then, bearing in mind that a vaccine is on the horizon (and the tests are likely parallel construction on one that roughly works), even continuing existing regulations following low/insufficient uptake could be seen as unlawful collective punishment, and the use of alternative powers could also be seen as improper (and therefore unlawful) circumvention. So once a vaccine is available and a suitable uptake period has been allowed for, the government would have to step back and cancel its powers. As private organisations are not generally entitled to people's medical records, refusal of shop etc. service or employment would also be nigh-on impossible.

 

[Scrotnig]

The problem that the UK has, in legislative terms, is that the powers that have been predominantly used are generally around Section 45 of the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984 (c. 22) which in its amended/current form (Section 45E) explicitly prohibits forced vaccination.

(Edit: missing link https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/22/section/45E)


Then, bearing in mind that a vaccine is on the horizon (and the tests are likely parallel construction on one that roughly works), even continuing existing regulations following low/insufficient uptake could be seen as unlawful collective punishment, and the use of alternative powers could also be seen as improper (and therefore unlawful) circumvention. So once a vaccine is available and a suitable uptake period has been allowed for, the government would have to step back and cancel its powers. As private organisations are not generally entitled to people's medical records, refusal of shop etc. service or employment would also be nigh-on impossible.

There's nothing to stop them simply passing more 'emergency' laws using a statutory instrument, to bypass all of that.

That seems to be the way we do things now.

No need to bother with the refurbishment of parliament, it's not used any more. Ministers just make up laws on the fly and pass them without any scrutiny.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’d say that’s pretty realistic. No one likes to inherit a cold, however it’s a fact of life that we all do from time to time. We can’t expect to be insulated from everything, and getting a cold off someone whilst mildly unpleasant isn’t generally dangerous. If everyone with a cold stayed off work then we’d have serious shortages of people over winter months.

No, we wouldn't, because the result of it would be fewer colds!

Hopefully “got a cold, stay at home, save the NHS” won’t now be some kind of norm.

That's a bit trite, but I fully agree with the principle of it. "Got a cold? Stay at home and save others the misery." sounds a good slogan.

 

[westv]

No, we wouldn't, because the result of it would be fewer colds!

Are people contagious before they know they have a cold?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are people contagious before they know they have a cold?

There may be a short period, but I don't believe the "asymptomatic carrier" thing in the same way. Certainly when I get one I can usually work out who gave me it.

 

[takno]

There may be a short period, but I don't believe the "asymptomatic carrier" thing in the same way. Certainly when I get one I can usually work out who gave me it.

Or possibly you have no idea who gave you the cold and are just making sniffy suppositions about any people you see who have the temerity to cough, or have long-standing sinus issues exacerbated by rubbish heating and the damp of an English winter. Can you not see how exactly this kind of ill-informed breezy rush to judgement, weaponised by Covid, puts a whole section of British society at risk of not being able to go out?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or possibly you have no idea who gave you the cold and are just making sniffy suppositions about any people you see who have the temerity to cough, or have long-standing sinus issues exacerbated by rubbish heating and the damp of an English winter.

Rubbish, because it's usually someone I know who openly admits having a cold!

 

[Richard Scott]

I'm sorry but this is getting ridiculous now. Talking about time off for a cold. Let's all give up now, the world may as well stop. This isn't realistic, is it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm sorry but this is getting ridiculous now. Talking about time off for a cold. Let's all give up now, the world may as well stop. This isn't realistic, is it?

Yes, it's completely realistic.

 

[Huntergreed]

I'm sorry but this is getting ridiculous now. Talking about time off for a cold. Let's all give up now, the world may as well stop. This isn't realistic, is it?

No it really isn’t, look how much damage shutting down for Covid has done, if we’re going to tell people to stay off for a cold, there’ll be so many people off the economy simply won’t work!

Back on topic: is it possible that with the next easing of lockdown we may see a move to 1m distancing overall, given the push for the economy to restart in August? If not then maybe September?

 

[Richard Scott]

No it really isn’t, look how much damage shutting down for Covid has done, if we’re going to tell people to stay off for a cold, there’ll be so many people off the economy simply won’t work!

That's what I was saying, possibly way I wrote it came across differently, I completely agree with you.

 

[talldave]

Yes, it's completely realistic.

I don't know what planet you're on, but the one I inhabit managed to scrape through to the 21st year of the 21st century without behaving as if the common cold is the plague. I'm happy for the status quo to continue.

Back on topic: is it possible that with the next easing of lockdown we may see a move to 1m distancing overall, given the push for the economy to restart in August? If not then maybe September?

Probably at the cost of more unjustified stupidity - goggles, ear plugs?

To be honest, distancing isn't a law so I've no interest in tracking what level of stupid we're at.

 

[Huntergreed]

To be honest, distancing isn't a law so I've no interest in tracking what level of stupid we're at.

This is the problem though - it’s not a law but it may as well be with local authorities having “Covid compliance teams” with the ability to shut down any business who isn’t implementing distancing. It’s guidance for us, but for as long as it’s around businesses have to follow it sadly.

 

[Enthusiast]

They're either the kind who like to boast that they've never had a day off in their lives due to sickness but fail to take into account the impact they have on the people around them, or they're people who are more susceptible to such illnesses and are terrified of calling in sick because of disciplinary repercussions. I've lost count of the number of times when I've been sitting next to a colleague that should really have been in bed, but they soldier on regardless because one more incident of absence will lead them down the path to a warning.

To be perfectly clear, I'm not talking about people who should be off work but have gone in to either demonstrate their stoicism or to avoid repercussions over sick leave, etc. (though the effect they have on others will probably be similar). I'm talking about the vast, vast majority of people who are quite capable of functioning normally whilst infected with a cold. Some people I know suffer two, three, or four colds almost every year but simply get on with it.
We're in danger of straying off-topic here but the principle relating to Covid is similar. Large numbers of people who will suffer minor or even no symptoms should they contract the virus have had to keep themselves isolated (at least from 23rd March to 15th June). They continue to have restrictions placed upon them - some practical and sensible but others plainly ridiculous. In just the same way that those who suffer unusually harshly from colds must take their own measures to prevent infection, those particularly likely to develop serious symptoms from Covid need to take their own precautions. "Social Distancing" will end up causing more casualties than Covid and the nation needs to find another way of protecting the vulnerable.

 

[al78]

At the risk of encouraging people to hate scientists (they are not all putting forward extreme opinions), the suggestion here is far worse that telling people to have a day or two off due to a cold:

Culture of shaking hands 'probably gone forever', says top scientist

The custom of shaking hands should be ditched permanently and Britain should move to a Japanese-style greeting culture to avoid future pandemics, public health experts have suggested. Baron Piot, a professor and microbiologist from the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, told peers...

uk.yahoo.com

Unfirtunately for me hugging female friends is a great emotional uplift, so if we get to the point where any physical contact is dioscouraged, my emotional wellbeing will plummet. I don't think I am capable of evolving into an emotionless Vulcan.

 

[Scrotnig]

"Face masks should become the norm".

Exactly what I've been preicting would happen.

 

[philosopher]

At the risk of encouraging people to hate scientists (they are not all putting forward extreme opinions), the suggestion here is far worse that telling people to have a day or two off due to a cold:

Culture of shaking hands 'probably gone forever', says top scientist

The custom of shaking hands should be ditched permanently and Britain should move to a Japanese-style greeting culture to avoid future pandemics, public health experts have suggested. Baron Piot, a professor and microbiologist from the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, told peers...

uk.yahoo.com

Unfirtunately for me hugging female friends is a great emotional uplift, so if we get to the point where any physical contact is dioscouraged, my emotional wellbeing will plummet. I don't think I am capable of evolving into an emotionless Vulcan.

I just can’t see that happening. A year or two after all this people will revert to their old behaviours as they will want to forget about all the social distancing measures that have occurred over the past few months. Shaking hands is just too ingrained in our culture.

Anyway hand shakes are fine if both people wash their hands before or afterwards

 

[Bletchleyite]

"Face masks should become the norm".

Exactly what I've been preicting would happen.

That's selective quoting. He said face masks should be the norm if you have a cold, and I think there's something in that; it's an alternative to staying at home if you have a cold (which is better).

Shaking hands...well, that's become much more of a thing of late, when I was growing up it was something only businessmen did.

 

[westv]

Shaking hands...well, that's become much more of a thing of late, when I was growing up it was something only businessmen did.

Are you more into hugs and kisses?

 

[AdamWW]

At the risk of encouraging people to hate scientists (they are not all putting forward extreme opinions), the suggestion here is far worse that telling people to have a day or two off due to a cold:

Culture of shaking hands 'probably gone forever', says top scientist

The custom of shaking hands should be ditched permanently and Britain should move to a Japanese-style greeting culture to avoid future pandemics, public health experts have suggested. Baron Piot, a professor and microbiologist from the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, told peers...

uk.yahoo.com

Unfirtunately for me hugging female friends is a great emotional uplift, so if we get to the point where any physical contact is dioscouraged, my emotional wellbeing will plummet. I don't think I am capable of evolving into an emotionless Vulcan.

And from that article: "If you've got a cold or flu stay home, stay out the way. " Said by someone who isn't likely to lose their job if they do so, perhaps?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are you more into hugs and kisses?

Other than family, when I was growing up physical contact greetings weren't really a thing at all. You said hello and waved goodbye.

 

[carlberry]

I don't know what planet you're on, but the one I inhabit managed to scrape through to the 21st year of the 21st century without behaving as if the common cold is the plague. I'm happy for the status quo to continue.

The small percentage of the indigenous population of South America that managed to survive the various diseases (including the common cold) that the Spanish brought over with them might disagree with you. Most of which are thought to have appeared because Europeans were much likely to be in close proximity to wild animals at the time.

 

[DB]

The small percentage of the indigenous population of South America that managed to survive the various diseases (including the common cold) that the Spanish brought over with them might disagree with you. Most of which are thought to have appeared because Europeans were much likely to be in close proximity to wild animals at the time.

The term 'whataboutery' is often misused, but I think it really does apply here!

 

[takno]

The small percentage of the indigenous population of South America that managed to survive the various diseases (including the common cold) that the Spanish brought over with them might disagree with you. Most of which are thought to have appeared because Europeans were much likely to be in close proximity to wild animals at the time.

Next time Europeans go on a large scale invasion of a land where the indigenous peoples haven't been exposed to our diseases, I'm sure they will all wear surgical-grade masks. It will certainly take a little longer to oppress and enslave them, but the laser-focus on stopping the Covid deaths will, I'm sure, be appreciated.

 

[AM9]

Other than family, when I was growing up physical contact greetings weren't really a thing at all. You said hello and waved goodbye.

Ah, a Soft Cell fan.

 

[Mag_seven]

At the risk of encouraging people to hate scientists (they are not all putting forward extreme opinions), the suggestion here is far worse that telling people to have a day or two off due to a cold:

Culture of shaking hands 'probably gone forever', says top scientist

The custom of shaking hands should be ditched permanently and Britain should move to a Japanese-style greeting culture to avoid future pandemics, public health experts have suggested. Baron Piot, a professor and microbiologist from the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, told peers...

uk.yahoo.com

Unfirtunately for me hugging female friends is a great emotional uplift, so if we get to the point where any physical contact is dioscouraged, my emotional wellbeing will plummet. I don't think I am capable of evolving into an emotionless Vulcan.

"Face masks should become the norm".

Exactly what I've been preicting would happen.

Its becoming clear that there is a vocal minority who are exploiting the measures used in the pandemic to try to impose their view on how society should operate. This worries me, far more than the risk of catching the virus does.