How Often Does a Driver Forget to Stop at a Station and What Are the Consequences?

[craigybagel]

Wasn't this one of the saddest things where the driver of the Moorgate tube train in the 1970's terrible crash didn't stop and actually accelerated into a dead end tunnel ? We can all find the humour in overshooting a platform, but it can have very serious consequences.

Indeed - but whilst we'll probably never know exactly why the incident at Moorgate happened the way it did, I think we can safely rule out the idea of the driver simply forgetting to stop.

Scuse my ignorance, but if a station has a stop signal at the end of the platform (Yes I know they dont all have them) then cant that signal be held at red till the train is in the platform with some sort of approach control. The signalling would have to know if the train is a stopper so non-stoppers are not held. up.
Just an idea....

You can, and there are certain stations where for various reasons the signalling is set up that way. However, making a habit of doing that at every station would both dramatically increase the risk of SPADs (as many more trains every day would be approaching red signals) and it would increase journey times quite considerably as well. You wouldn't approach a red signal at anything like the speed you can approach a station with a clear or no signal at the end.

 

[Watershed]

Scuse my ignorance, but if a station has a stop signal at the end of the platform (Yes I know they dont all have them) then cant that signal be held at red till the train is in the platform with some sort of approach control. The signalling would have to know if the train is a stopper so non-stoppers are not held. up.
Just an idea....

In theory there's no reason it couldn't work like that, and indeed at most major stations it's how things work (as the dispatcher needs to press a 'Train Ready To Start' plunger for the signals to be cleared).

But it means that drivers have to approach the station more cautiously as they are driving under cautionary aspects, hence the timetable would need to be adjusted to account for the longer journey times.

And more to the point, not all signal boxes/centres are capable of holding their platform starting signals at danger - at plainline stations these will often just be automatic signals, which on most signalling systems installed more than 10 or 20 years ago likely won't have an 'emergency replacement' function.

Even if you are in an area with such a capability, it would cause a significant increase in signalling workload to clear signals at every station that every train calls at (unless you fitted ARS ubiquitously), so you'd need to employ a lot of additional signallers.

In short, it's an idea that works in theory but not really in practice.

 

[Typhoon]

On a few years ago, a north bound Cross City Line* train (one of the few journeys at the time that omitted several stations), missed Duddeston (as expected), slowed down but went through Aston (scheduled stop - a few people waiting), and went on to the next scheduled stop at Chester Road. I regularly took that journey - Aston was a popular alighting stop among workmen, who were in the end carriage. If there was a guard, they did well to keep themselves hidden. The clerk in the ticket office at Chester Road advised us that there was no need to purchase a ticket for the journey back to Aston. Unfortunately, the inspectors on the next train didn't agree and charged at least some people, denying that the stop had been missed, which led to a very heated debate. What I couldn't understand is no train journey omitted Aston; driver just had one of those moments, I suppose.

* Birmingham

 

[ComUtoR]

It's more of a case the nearest tree lined area of track is a fair few miles away, you'd hope any residue or leaf build up would have been worn off in the 5 or 6 miles of multiple points, curves and general running. But hey take it how you want

As I stated, it ISN'T just about leaves. You can get places where the railhead gets contaminated, especially by all the junk in the air floating around some heavy industrial areas. Chuck in some early morning dew and a train can slip like a **** !! At my TOC we have a few stations where its well known a train can slip even in the summer, on a dry day, where there are NO trees.

Anyone who has driven their train behind a water jetter knows how much of a nightmare a clean, slightly damp, set of rails can be.

But yeah, leaves on the line

 

[jamesst]

As I stated, it ISN'T just about leaves. You can get places where the railhead gets contaminated, especially by all the junk in the air floating around some heavy industrial areas. Chuck in some early morning dew and a train can slip like a **** !! At my TOC we have a few stations where its well known a train can slip even in the summer, on a dry day, where there are NO trees.

Anyone who has driven their train behind a water jetter knows how much of a nightmare a clean, slightly damp, set of rails can be.

But yeah, leaves on the line

This 100%!!!
Early morning dew is an absolute nightmare to drive on.

 

[scrapy]

Should be noted that fail to calls aren't always the drivers fault, diagram errors, timetable errors and failure to be given special stop orders are sometimes a reason.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Many, many years ago in the early 1990's there was a station at Godley East. This was served by one train a week in one direction only from either Hadfield or Glossop to Manchester Piccadilly. Having arrived at the departure point in good time, I took the precaution of asking the driver whether he was indeed going to stop at the aforementioned station (which may have been a request stop, I can't remember). He said "no - the station is closed and he wouldn't be stopping". I then sought out the guard who was more knowledgeable. He checked his timetable and told the driver that he was scheduled to stop, which he duly did. Fortunately the gate was open so I was able to get out of the station and walk a quarter of a mile or so to Godley, which was a newer station built to replace Godley East. I then returned to Glossop to see Bradford lose 4-1 to Glossop North End.

Another once-a-week-in-one-direction-only train was a working which ran between 8 and 9 pm on Saturdays from Manchester Victoria to Ashburys via Philips Park No 1 Jn to Ashburys W Jn. I had the greatest of difficulty getting the gentleman in the ticket office to sell me a ticket. Then I had further difficulties locating the train as it wasn't shown on the departure board. When I finally succeeded, I was the only passenger and was surprised when the train came to a halt in the tracks behind the eastbound platform at Ashburys. The signalman and driver obviously didn't expect there to be passengers. I told the guard I would be quite happy to stay on the train for its empty stock working back to Victoria, but they insisted on shunting the train into one of the platforms leaving me I to catch a train back to Piccadilly using my CDR ticket.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

It's happened to me once at Newport, many years ago.

It was a stopping train from Cardiff Central to (I'm not sure where - I was only going to Newport) which should have stopped at Newport. We came out of the tunnel and went straight through on one of the middle roads avoiding the platform completely. I thought "that shouldn't have happened" as the driver brought the train to a halt on Newport Bridge. After a while, we reversed into the station and I (and others) got off.

I have never known why it happened or whether the driver was reported.

 

[Ianno87]

Scuse my ignorance, but if a station has a stop signal at the end of the platform (Yes I know they dont all have them) then cant that signal be held at red till the train is in the platform with some sort of approach control. The signalling would have to know if the train is a stopper so non-stoppers are not held. up.
Just an idea....

In theory there's no reason it couldn't work like that, and indeed at most major stations it's how things work (as the dispatcher needs to press a 'Train Ready To Start' plunger for the signals to be cleared).

But it means that drivers have to approach the station more cautiously as they are driving under cautionary aspects, hence the timetable would need to be adjusted to account for the longer journey times.

And more to the point, not all signal boxes/centres are capable of holding their platform starting signals at danger - at plainline stations these will often just be automatic signals, which on most signalling systems installed more than 10 or 20 years ago likely won't have an 'emergency replacement' function.

Even if you are in an area with such a capability, it would cause a significant increase in signalling workload to clear signals at every station that every train calls at (unless you fitted ARS ubiquitously), so you'd need to employ a lot of additional signallers.

In short, it's an idea that works in theory but not really in practice.

Although ETCS will change that, where the driver is guided to a stop by the braking curve (and could potentially be more "agressive" than judging an approach to a red signal today)

 

[westcoaster]

Although ETCS will change that, where the driver is guided to a stop by the braking curve (and could potentially be more "agressive" than judging an approach to a red signal today)

Doesnt really work like that under ETCS, you still need to drive defensively, as if you get behind the brake curve, the train can take over to stop it self.
ATO on the other hand you can shoot up to the red/ end of authority, and stop on a dime.

 

[Ianno87]

Doesnt really work like that under ETCS, you still need to drive defensively, as if you get behind the brake curve, the train can take over to stop it self.

Depends what the ETCS braking profile is. In some respects, it gives the drivers much more comfort on approach than the (for example) rules where drivers have to be at a certain speed at the platform ramps. That can be superseded by following the braking curve instead.

 

[43096]

It varies dependent on metro and mainline routes and normally occurs in peaks with irregular calling patterns. If it happens to a driver, they (or a guard if on board) will report it to the signaller, it will be relayed to the driver's TOC control and a manager will decide if the driver is fit to continue in the immediate and they might be met by a driver manager on route if welfare is needed. It will put down on the drivers record (to some degree, might not be serious) and likely to have a conversation with their manager at a later point about root cause analysis, mitigations etc.

That irregular calling pattern was responsible for the only two times I've been onboard as a passenger for a fail to stop - both on the up at Putney on trains from Reading. The first was one of the two trains of the day (the first two) from Reading that called at Putney, nothing else on the up or the down called. Went straight through, stopped as usual at Clapham and Waterloo. When I walked past the cab, man with the laptop was doing an OTMR download.

The second time was on a Saturday when engineering works meant all Reading trains were calling at Putney (normally none do on a Saturday) and failed to stop. Easily done, I suspect, in such circumstances.

 

[DaveTM]

Scuse my ignorance, but if a station has a stop signal at the end of the platform (Yes I know they dont all have them) then cant that signal be held at red till the train is in the platform with some sort of approach control. The signalling would have to know if the train is a stopper so non-stoppers are not held. up.
Just an idea....

That would seem like a good idea, but it does affect the timings. Failure to stop at a red is considered a much worse cockup that failure to stop at the right place on a platform. As such, my train operating company's Professional Driver Policy requires me to slow to 30mph at 300m from a red, 20mph at 200m from a red, and 10mph at 100m from a red; there is no matching requirement for stopping at a platform. A brake step 2 stop onto an 80m 4 coach platform with a proceed aspect would be done from ~25mph at platform start.

For example, between Chichester and Southbourne there is a signal on the end of each platform with no intermediate signals and the signalling system can be set to either fast mode (i.e. if there is no train in the sections ahead of you the signal will be green and the Automatic Half Barrier crossings will work as you expect) or slow mode (signal stays at red and barriers stay up until train near signal, barrier sequence starts and signal clears to green when barriers down). The reason for "slow mode" is that trains stopping in stations and picking up wheelchairs etc can dwell so long that the crossings timeout and have to be reset with signaller intervention. Fast trains run through on greens, stopping trains approach every signal/platform on a red. Normally on a stopping service you will struggle to gain time if you are delayed. On the rare occasion the signaller accidentally gives you the fast setting you can easily make up 30-45 seconds per station.

As I stated, it ISN'T just about leaves. You can get places where the railhead gets contaminated, especially by all the junk in the air floating around some heavy industrial areas. Chuck in some early morning dew and a train can slip like a **** !! At my TOC we have a few stations where its well known a train can slip even in the summer, on a dry day, where there are NO trees.

Anyone who has driven their train behind a water jetter knows how much of a nightmare a clean, slightly damp, set of rails can be.

But yeah, leaves on the line

No trees near the end of Gatwick's runway. Apparently they don't mix well with airliners. But after the ancient freighters and aeroflot have taken off over the Brighton mainline it can get interesting!

What also makes this very strange is that the drivers do the same routes day after day after day; how can they forget a stop that almost every single non-IC service calls at?

Between Brighton and Portsmouth there are 23 stations. There are therefore 8,388,608 possible stopping patterns in each direction (2*2*2*2...23 times), and that is ignoring those trains that terminate short at Littlehampton or West Worthing or Portsmouth Harbour. Up until the COVID induced timetable changes, there were only about 8 of those 8 million stopping patterns that were actually used. Either you were a slow train stopping at every station, or you were a semi-fast stopping at the middlings and busys, or you were a fast stopping only at the busys. There have always been a few trains to catch drivers out (e.g. at chucking out time for the nice school at East Worthing, the fast trains used to stop at a sleepy halt). But since the COVID timetables have come in, it sometimes feels that the decision for each individual train have been made by a toss of a coin for each station.

As an example, there are many trains during the day that do all stops Littlehampton to Portsmouth and Southsea. The return working is always the mirror image, except for just one train that is not booked to stop at Bedhampton.

In some ways, I suspect that the current abundance of weird stopping patterns might actually reduce the number of Failures To Call and Stops Out Of Course, because drivers are at a heightened level of anxiety!

I look at it like shelling peas. It is a simple monotonous task that a dumb robot would never get wrong. You've got a bag of peapods and you go:
Peas in pan
Pods in bin
Peas in pan
Pods in bin
Peas in pan
Pods in bin
Peas in bin
Pods in pan
Oh, for f**ks sake. It is such a simple task, how could I have possibly got it wrong...

I have previously messed up. Several days in a row where every train I drove was a semi-fast were followed by the day where I was driving a stopper and some idiot misbehaved at a foot crossing. When it became clear he wasn't going to ruin the paintwork I took power and carried on ... straight through the station I was supposed to stop at next. We do the same routes day after day, but that in some ways is the problem, not the solution.

 

[mrcheek]

I was once on a XC service that stopped at Tiverton Parkway when it wasnt supposed to.

Unfortunately, it was running late, with a GWR service behind, so several passengers tried to board assuming it was for Paddington (as the displays indicated!)

IN all my years travelling, I can only once remember a train failing to stop, and I think it was on a single line, so the driver was simply able to reverse back. (presumably having sought permission to do so first)

 

[greyman42]

Was there a northbound Virgin East Coast/LNER service that overshot Northallerton a couple of years ago?

 

[Whistler40145]

I've been on several passenger trains and railtours where a station has been missed

 

[Route115?]

I've had a train fail to stop at my local station on the Chiltern Line although given the skip stop nature of the timetable you have to sympathise with the driver.

Certainly under the old franchising rules it counts as a part cancellation which could have implications for the TOC. (An interesting issue for Control when deciding to skip stops in late running trains.)

In the 80s in BR days there were serious adhension problems between Redhill & Guildford. In one case the train overshot a platform so much that the driver didn't bother setting back and continued to the next station. I think that this was before sandite & other adhesion technology, and probably a more relaxed attitide tp SPADS. (I know that on the Met line south of Amersham they double blocked trains during leaf fall things were so bad.)

 

[zero]

On a recent trip the guard forgot to stop.

I was travelling to a station which is only served a few times a day. The timetables had been changed such that the train I took did not previously stop there, but it now did.

When I boarded the train the automated announcements included my stop, but when the guard repeated the announcement he did not say the name of my stop.

When we got to the station, the driver stopped the train, but the doors didn't open for around 2 minutes. Based on their omission of the stop in their announcement and the timetable change, I can only surmise that the guard didn't realise it was a scheduled stop until perhaps the driver called them or they rechecked their diagram(? is that the right term) after we didn't move for so long.

 

[the sniper]

On a recent trip the guard forgot to stop.

I was travelling to a station which is only served a few times a day. The timetables had been changed such that the train I took did not previously stop there, but it now did.

When I boarded the train the automated announcements included my stop, but when the guard repeated the announcement he did not say the name of my stop.

When we got to the station, the driver stopped the train, but the doors didn't open for around 2 minutes. Based on their omission of the stop in their announcement and the timetable change, I can only surmise that the guard didn't realise it was a scheduled stop until perhaps the driver called them or they rechecked their diagram(? is that the right term) after we didn't move for so long.

Under the circumstances you describe, I doubt the stop was on the Guard's diagram, rather than them forgetting.

 

[Roger1973]

I think I've only once been on a train that has failed to stop at a station (other than due to the train crew being instructed to skip stops to make up time, being diverted away from normal route, or there being an ongoing incident at the station.)

Some time in the mid 1980s on the North London Line, when it was in the 2 EPB / class 416 era. I can't remember which station, but we went through it, came to a fairly abrupt halt, then reversed in to it.

As the NLL was 'all stations' (so not a case of forgetting which stopping pattern that particular train was on) and the train was running with the brake van at the front, I suspect that driver and guard were distracting each other.

 

[YorksLad12]

A great many years ago I was a train from Bradford Interchange to Leeds which half-missed the platform at Bramley. It did screech to a stop, but the carriage end I was in was off the end of the platform.

I've noticed that bus stops tend to have the one on the opposite side of the road placed before the one on the direction of travel. Not always, but usually (in Leeds, anyway). I'd assumed that this was a reminder to the driver that there was a stop ahead. At Bramley you come to 'your' platform before the one in the opposite direction; I'd assume now that there's a "Bramley Station Ahead" board to prompt the driver to ask themselves if they stop at this one, as happens elsewhere.

 

[Essexman]

I can only recall this happening once with a train I've been travelling on.
A Eurostar to Brussels was supposed to stop at Calais but despite a hefty brake application came to a halt with only a few coaches in the platform.
The guard announced that the driver had forgotten to stop and it took ages to get permission to set back then reset the computer to enable the train to do this.
Strangely on my next trip the train made an unscheduled stop at Calais because a lady in our coach had gone into labour in the Channel Tunnel.

 

[Lockwood]

As an example, there are many trains during the day that do all stops Littlehampton to Portsmouth and Southsea. The return working is always the mirror image, except for just one train that is not booked to stop at Bedhampton.

I got caught out by that train as a passenger more times than I should have.
Boarding at Hilsea, every train from there stops at Bedhampton, right? Oh. I'm at Havant with a ticket to Bedhampton.

 

[Whistler40145]

I once did 37053 on a Cardiff Central to Weymouth forward from Bristol Temple Meads, outward journey went well, return journey was okay until slowing for Keynsham, driver didn't slow in time for the station, stopped at the next signal, got out and phoned the box and was given permission to reverse back into Keynsham to set down, it got crazy as the loco shutdown and wouldn't restart, we had to wait for the loco to cool down, then started fine and continued without further issues.

The second occasion was on the A1A Charters Cold Turkey railtour whereby the driver didn't have the correct set down stops, we were approaching Warrington Bank Quay off the Chester line and going at some fine speed, bombing straight through the station where passengers were alighting, but stopped at Earlestown for passengers to return on the next service.

 

[D6975]

I’m surprised that so many people on a rail forum have had so few incidences. I’ve had lots in my time. Most memorable was going through Haywards Heath at full pelt on a train that was supposed to stop, the pax were most annoyed at having to double back from the unscheduled stop that the signalman enforced. Another was standing on Stapleton Rd watching the peak hour Pompey-Cardiff that used to stop there go sailing through. Then the odd one where I was on a Cardiff-Birmingham that made its scheduled stop at Severn TJ, the driver picked up a member of staff into the cab, then pulled off without the passenger doors opening (I walked back from Caldicot). There used to be some summer Saturday services that were booked through Bristol TM on the through road, but I was once on one that was booked to stop that was given the down through. An extra stop at Bedminster was needed. One that didn’t affect me (I was heading back to TM from Salisbury) but did the handful of people on the platform at Freshford when one of the very few Pompey-Cardiffs that was booked a stop there went straight through.

 

[ExRes]

I remember a sunday morning when there'd been disruption on the MML, I took the first two services, 170s, hooked together, as one was Luton and one was Luton AP I phoned Control and told them I'd be stopping at both which they OK'd, didn't stop Management from giving the poor old TM an earful for stopping out of course though

 

[LAX54]

I agree, I'm surprised the Driver didn't question the 5 shown on the signal protecting the bay platform.

I did it many years ago at Colchester, I signalled the Clacton to London into the bay (P5) at Colchester, Driver stopped at CO16 to tell me of the problem, took the signal back, waited for the time out, then routed into P4................At that point the Driver promptly went sick ! citing stress or wrong routing, and signal going back to red !
This was a Sunday Morning mid -summer, blue sky.......
The Driver Manager later called the PSB later and apologised ! saying that he knew why the Driver had gone sick lol

 

[voyagerdude220]

I did it many years ago at Colchester, I signalled the Clacton to London into the bay (P5) at Colchester, Driver stopped at CO16 to tell me of the problem, took the signal back, waited for the time out, then routed into P4................At that point the Driver promptly went sick ! citing stress or wrong routing, and signal going back to red !
This was a Sunday Morning mid -summer, blue sky.......
The Driver Manager later called the PSB later and apologised ! saying that he knew why the Driver had gone sick lol

Oh no! At least the Driver Manager was understanding.

 

[LAX54]

At the London end of platforms 1 and 2 at Shenfield are “Romford?” signs presumably as reminders to drivers.

For the GA fast services, Romford is an irregular and infrequent stop, so I can see how it would be easy to miss.

Romford was (is ? ) quite common, they did a quick fix of changing the headcodes of trains, Those that stop Class 2, those that do not Class 1, fine for Drivers, but for Signallers it's a pain trying to regulate services, as Signallers do not know all stopping patterns, but can't see it changing now !

Oh no! At least the Driver Manager was understanding.

Indeed, but my Manager had a few words with me, as the delays / cancellation went down to Signaller / Railtrack.

Have experienced this as a passenger twice in the 40 or so years I can remember. Once at Chippenham where the brakes first came on very hard as we shot through the platform at full speed. Delightful smell of original HST brakes, flying tea and coffee and eventually came to a halt about a mile down the line - long wait before ignominious reversal to the station. Odd, as everything booked to stop. Less odd, but equally surprising to those already in the vestibules waiting to get off was sailing through Durham on a northbound HST. We were already about 50 minutes late and I have a suspicion that this was arranged but not communicated. Certainly no one waiting on the platform.
Plenty of overshoots in Germany requiring climbing down to the ballast ( usually only a few more inches than normal). Only r we member one in the UK. Unfortunately that was at a terminus!

Surely if it was a mile, the train would not have set back ?

 

[father_jack]

Irish railtour in late 1990s was meant to stop at Portarlington to pick up one passenger (with a native irish name nobody could pronounce). Train slowed to creeping pace as if it was going to stop but the signal for the junction to the west was cleared and the driver took power with an intense roar and fantastic smoke. Tour steward pulls the emergency stop cord- nothing happens !!! Thankfully the guard gets to the brake in the van and stops the train. Then ensues a delay while Seamus walks the 3/4 of a mile up the track to catch up !!!