How often were Eurostars routed over the Catford Loop?

[Sad Sprinter]

Were there any booked runs over the loop, or were they all diversions during disruption? I can't find many pictures online of Eurostars over the loop, but from other people's accounts in happened at least semi-reguarly.

 

[swt_passenger]

Were there any booked runs over the loop, or were they all diversions during disruption? I can't find many pictures online of Eurostars over the loop, but from other people's accounts in happened at least semi-reguarly.

IIRC they were more like a “signallers choice” on the day, with it being a sort of secondary option if it would smooth out normal perturbations due to other services running slightly late. So it wouldn’t necessarily be considered as disruption, more like a service regulation tool...

 

[Galvanize]

Definitely remember them on the Catford Loop during my Yoof, growing up in South East London. My secondary school’s playing fields was near the Catford Loop in Nunhead, and among the Networkers, Slammers and Electrostars, occasional Eurostars would roar along the line!

And at one stage in 2005/6, a move involving a pair of EPS Class 37/6s dragging a Class 373 happened, and it went along the Catford Loop usually around about lunchtime!

 

[Gloster]

On one occasion I was coming back on a Eurostar, sitting at the end of the coach as usual and watching the other passengers, most of which were a group of 15-16 year olds who had got on at Lille. As is usual for French teens heading abroad, the words ‘high-spirited’ can well be used. We were diverted at Shortlands and few minutes later there was a shout of, “Regardez, c’est Wemblee!”, followed by pointing and excited chatter. I though of saying that no, that was Catford Dog Track, but it would probably have ended in confusion. (“Mais a quoi le chat?”)

 

[30907]

I don't have access to relevant working timetables, but ISTR an evening peak train or two out of Waterloo were booked that way, with earlier departures compared with Saturday. 1723/1727 rings a bell.
Not sure any were booked into London that way - it adds to the conflicting movements and Eurostars are particularly long trains!

 

[eastwestdivide]

I went that way on one out of the two occasions I caught the Eurostar before St Pancras. It also went via Maidstone East

 

[Taunton]

Probably 2003, mid-morning from Waterloo, we went via Catford, then straight ahead at Chislehurst, had a signal stop for 10 minutes, carried on grinding round the curves at Maidstone East, got stuck behind a lorry shuttle climbing out of the Channel Tunnel, and ended up at Gare du Nord an hour late.

There's no significant 4-track between Victoria and Bromley, but the timetables of the local trains on both Herne Hill and Catford are alternated so that whenever a fast turns up it can be decided which of the two routes to send it by so as not to get stuck behind one. This applies still to Kent services from Victoria. Catford is a couple of minutes longer, but can be quicker than being stuck behind a stopper. It was always done like this with boat trains in the old days.

Another less common one was routing Eurostars via Bat & Ball, which I thought we were doing on that previous occasion until we turned left at Otford. Sounds strange but again the 2-track section with intermediate stations and a long tunnel section from Orpington to Sevenoaks can be full up, and it's still only a few minutes more to go this way round. The two routes are quite close by Otford. I did wonder what the French TGV drivers made of this all.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Probably 2003, mid-morning from Waterloo, we went via Catford, then straight ahead at Chislehurst, had a signal stop for 10 minutes, carried on grinding round the curves at Maidstone East, got stuck behind a lorry shuttle climbing out of the Channel Tunnel, and ended up at Gare du Nord an hour late.

There's no significant 4-track between Victoria and Bromley, but the timetables of the local trains on both Herne Hill and Catford are alternated so that whenever a fast turns up it can be decided which of the two routes to send it by so as not to get stuck behind one. This applies still to Kent services from Victoria. Catford is a couple of minutes longer, but can be quicker than being stuck behind a stopper. It was always done like this with boat trains in the old days.

Another less common one was routing Eurostars via Bat & Ball, which I thought we were doing on that previous occasion until we turned left at Otford. Sounds strange but again the 2-track section with intermediate stations and a long tunnel section from Orpington to Sevenoaks can be full up, and it's still only a few minutes more to go this way round. The two routes are quite close by Otford. I dod wonder what the French TGV drivers made of this all.

There was a certain bit of je ne sais quoi I think the Eurostar had when it had to weave through the maze of sleepy Victorian railways into London.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

I can remember going via Maidstone East on an evening peak Brussels train but can’t recall whether we went via Catford.

The east side of Foret depot, which I managed once, was much more interesting and I think rather rarer.

 

[Ianno87]

Probably off-topic for this thread, but I'd love to know what signed routes Eurostar currently have in France/Belgium when LGV Nord / HSL1 are unavailable or blocked.

 

[CW2]

I only went via Catford four times, always in the Continent -> UK direction. The most unusual was one Sunday morning returning from Bruxelles, when we went via Tonbridge, Bat & Ball then Catford. On the other three occasions it was various Paris - London services. I did record one trip as the 1519 ex Paris Nord, running non-stop to Waterloo in 2 hours 51 minutes.

 

[riceuten]

I remember a wide variety of circuitous routes taken by the trains to Brussels (including, memorably going via Mons/Bergen) when there were works on various lines.

 

[Taunton]

Part of the justification for putting in the substantial flyover at Shortlands junction, which seemed to require some property acquisition, would be so inbound services could be seamlessly diverted (and outbound meshed in to the fast lines) via either Herne Hill or Catford, without impacting on conflicting local services.

 

[Alfie1014]

Being involved in the Channel Tunnel timetable development as Thameslink Service Planning Manager in the early 90s yes some in the weekday peaks were booked that way. When originally envisaged there were up to 4 ‘Q’ paths each hour in each direction (two paths four mins apart every 30 mins) for Eurostar though in the evening peak in particular there were variations/reductions. One issue was that most of the Brighton Thameslink services ran via Herne Hill, (only the odd one ran via London Bridge), which in turn pushed some Eurostar’s to run via the Catford Loop to avoid conflict, though prior to the Shortlands diveunder this increased journey times slightly if I remember correctly?

So the timetable development process was Eurostar first on the graph, followed by Thameslink, then SE, SC and MML, those were the days!

 

[Taunton]

All these combinations had been followed by boat trains in the past, which were long subject to seasonal extras, duplicates (or more) being run, even the need to run significant numbers of return ECS to balance things off, and in the Up direction were very unreliable for timing, dependent on weather in the Channel, relief ships operating, or even delayed inbound services into Calais. Hence all the Q paths.

I believe it wasn't only on the UK side; from Dieppe to Paris Gare St Lazare I seem to recall there was an equivalent minor loop which some SNCF boat trains followed at times of pressure.

 

[Gloster]

I believe it wasn't only on the UK side; from Dieppe to Paris Gare St Lazare I seem to recall there was an equivalent minor loop which some SNCF boat trains followed at times of pressure.

I travelled this way on a few of my earliest trips in the 1970s. I think that the normal route was via Rouen and Mantes, with there being several alternatives once you were past Mantes and into the Paris suburbs. The rarely used alternative was the more direct but slower route via Serqueux, Gisors and Pontoise. I did come back that way once, but I think it was just on the normal evening train, not a boat one.

EDIT On reflection, I think that at one time the boat expresses did use the line via Serqueux; I am not sure when this ended, possibly when the Le Havre line was electrified in the mid-1960s. By the time I travelled on it in the mid-1980s it was a very run-down secondary line.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Does anyone know what would of happened if the lines through Bromley South were blocked for whatever reason? Could Eurostars be routed through Lewisham and Nunhead or from Tonbridge to Redhill for instance?

 

[Gloster]

Purely from my recollection, Channel Tunnel Route III was via Edenbridge and Redhill, and I presume that Eurostars were authorised that way. I think that the electrification of Tonbridge-Redhill was so that it could be use as a diversionary route.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Does anyone know what would of happened if the lines through Bromley South were blocked for whatever reason? Could Eurostars be routed through Lewisham and Nunhead or from Tonbridge to Redhill for instance?

I don't think any Eurostars (or class 92s) ever went via Redhill and Tonbridge.
That was because all Eurostar/92 routes were found to need enhanced signalling interference protection, and this was never fitted on the Redhill route.
That meant any Channel Tunnel freight routed that way (which wasn't much) was diesel hauled to Dollands Moor.
The electrification of that route would not have been done if they had known that when they started the route upgrades.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

So I'm guessing if Bromley South was blocked, Eurostars would have to be dragged over the Redhill to Tonbridge route by a class 37 then?

 

[Galvanize]

Does anyone know what would of happened if the lines through Bromley South were blocked for whatever reason? Could Eurostars be routed through Lewisham and Nunhead or from Tonbridge to Redhill for instance?

Don’t ever recall seeing them go through Lewisham at any point in time!

I do remember some Family Friends telling me about a time were coming back from Paris on the Eurostar back in the late 1990s, due to a problem with the lines, the train terminated at Ashford International, and everyone got put on an another train to London via an alternative route.

“We were on the Eurostar, in lovely comfort of Standard Premier, sat at Ashford International for ages, waited and waited. Then we were told to get off and that another train was being organised for us...an old Dirty, Dilapidated and Draughty Slam Door Train turned up, which rattled along through the Countryside...thought we were coming off the rails at some point!”
Think the train took them to London Victoria, where anyone who specifically needed to go to Waterloo International, could get a Taxi, but they didn’t as Victoria suited them to get back to where they needed to be.

Whether it was an actual additional train, or they were simply told to get on an ordinary service train into London, I don’t know!

 

[Ianno87]

Purely from my recollection, Channel Tunnel Route III was via Edenbridge and Redhill, and I presume that Eurostars were authorised that way. I think that the electrification of Tonbridge-Redhill was so that it could be use as a diversionary route.

The only physical route to get there from Waterloo would be Herne Hill-Tulse Hill-(Crystal Palace or Streatham)-East Croydon, and I'd be surprised if 373s were cleared for that.

That and I'm fairly sure the power supply Redhill-Tonbridge is not overly generous.

 

[Beebman]

Don’t ever recall seeing them go through Lewisham at any point in time!

I do remember some Family Friends telling me about a time were coming back from Paris on the Eurostar back in the late 1990s, due to a problem with the lines, the train terminated at Ashford International, and everyone got put on an another train to London via an alternative route.

“We were on the Eurostar, in lovely comfort of Standard Premier, sat at Ashford International for ages, waited and waited. Then we were told to get off and that another train was being organised for us...an old Dirty, Dilapidated and Draughty Slam Door Train turned up, which rattled along through the Countryside...thought we were coming off the rails at some point!”
Think the train took them to London Victoria, where anyone who specifically needed to go to Waterloo International, could get a Taxi, but they didn’t as Victoria suited them to get back to where they needed to be.

Whether it was an actual additional train, or they were simply told to get on an ordinary service train into London, I don’t know!

That also happened to me once in the late 90s, I was turfed off a Eurostar at Ashford and I ended up travelling to Charing Cross. I recall that there was no staff around at Ashford to guide people off the train so while most of the passengers stood on the platform milling around not sure what to, I sped off through passport control and jumped straight on a London-bound 4-VEP on an ordinary service which departed promptly and I wasn't that much delayed in the end!

 

[30907]

Purely from my recollection, Channel Tunnel Route III was via Edenbridge and Redhill, and I presume that Eurostars were authorised that way. I think that the electrification of Tonbridge-Redhill was so that it could be use as a diversionary route.

CTR 2/3 were Bat&Ball and Maidstone (or v.v. - memory fails)

Don’t ever recall seeing them go through Lewisham at any point in time!

Clearance issues at Lewisham, maybe, or power supply issues?
Mind you, I am a little surprised that Lewisham-Nunhead wasn't cleared, as complete blocks via Bromley S aren't unknown.

 

[MotCO]

With regards to the alternative routes, I assume route knowledge would have been required for all the route combinations since the driver would not know at the outset which route would be taken.

To give an example. In the early days a continent-bound Eurostar broken down at Chelsfield, and blocked the line for over 3 hours (it might even have been longer). Thus all subsequent Eurostars would have had to be diverted.

Sightly off-topic, but this breakdown completely snarled up the main South Eastern line during the evening rush hour. Buses were eventually laid on at Orpington for passengers for Chelsfield, Knockholt and Dunton Green (and the sheer number of pasengers at Orpington spilt over on to the Crofton Road causing it to be closed), but I have never understood why pasengers for these stations were not carried to Sevenoaks via Otford and Bat & Ball, and told to catch a London bound train at Sevenoaks. So much simpler and quicker (and cheaper)!

 

[Taunton]

With regards to the alternative routes, I assume route knowledge would have been required for all the route combinations since the driver would not know at the outset which route would be taken.

True. In fact, as half the drivers were based at Paris or Brussels, they would have to come over to learn all the combinations. It wasn't like Stewarts Lane crews in boat train days, who knew it all from suburban work. I wonder what the French made, in the Gare du Nord crew room, of "Ze way by ze Bat and ze Boll".

 

[Bald Rick]

So I'm guessing if Bromley South was blocked, Eurostars would have to be dragged over the Redhill to Tonbridge route by a class 37 then?

Nope, it was detrain at Ashford.

The only physical route to get there from Waterloo would be Herne Hill-Tulse Hill-(Crystal Palace or Streatham)-East Croydon, and I'd be surprised if 373s were cleared for that.

They weren’t.

That and I'm fairly sure the power supply Redhill-Tonbridge is not overly generous.

Generous enough, but the signalling (track circuit) issues north of Redhill prevented use by 373s or 92s

 

[seahermit]

Just come across this fascinating thread - sorry if my comments repeat what has been covered before .. but I remember that in the late 1960's (I'm that old!) I always thought of the Catford Loop as being a little local/suburban line serving my home station of Crofton Park. And getting my father up to his place of work near Holborn Viaduct Station (when it existed then). Therefore to my astonishment, as I waited once on the platform for my train down to Catford (for Lewisham Market), an exotic-looking and long continental train complete with Wagon-Lit cars etc. came rushing through the station - presumably diverted somehow from the Victoria to Folkestone route. I was quite young and green then, didn't even realise such a diversionary route was possible ..

 

[rogercov]

Just come across this fascinating thread - sorry if my comments repeat what has been covered before .. but I remember that in the late 1960's (I'm that old!) I always thought of the Catford Loop as being a little local/suburban line serving my home station of Crofton Park. And getting my father up to his place of work near Holborn Viaduct Station (when it existed then). Therefore to my astonishment, as I waited once on the platform for my train down to Catford (for Lewisham Market), an exotic-looking and long continental train complete with Wagon-Lit cars etc. came rushing through the station - presumably diverted somehow from the Victoria to Folkestone route. I was quite young and green then, didn't even realise such a diversionary route was possible ..

It was very common then, as indeed it still is.
In my childhood (early 60s), those trains that were fast from Victoria to Bromley South would use either the Herne Hill route or the Catford Loop. The same applied to the boat trains, including the Night Ferry, which you saw, and later the Eurostars. I think the Herne Hill route may have been slightly quicker, but only by a minute or two.
The only difference between then and now is that in the 60s they all passed Brixton (on the North side) to reach Denmark Hill. At that time they could not use the higher level route over the bridge at Brixton as this was just for the Central Section (South London Line). Nowadays, the Catford Loop trains can use this route as well, allowing even more flexibility.

 

[30907]

Just come across this fascinating thread - sorry if my comments repeat what has been covered before .. but I remember that in the late 1960's (I'm that old!) I always thought of the Catford Loop as being a little local/suburban line serving my home station of Crofton Park. And getting my father up to his place of work near Holborn Viaduct Station (when it existed then). Therefore to my astonishment, as I waited once on the platform for my train down to Catford (for Lewisham Market), an exotic-looking and long continental train complete with Wagon-Lit cars etc. came rushing through the station - presumably diverted somehow from the Victoria to Folkestone route. I was quite young and green then, didn't even realise such a diversionary route was possible ..

The Up Night Ferry used the Catford Loop from electrification in 1959 for pathing reasons (aka to keep it out of the way of a business train) until its very last years. Any other fast train could be diverted that way - traincrew were specifically instructed not to query the routing either way.