How to improve Euston station

[Bald Rick]

My solution? On the 805/7 thread it appears power supply upgrades have put an end to the idea of a second Liverpool for several years, so use the slack this creates to re-diagram Avanti with longer turnarounds meaning platforms can open 15-20 minutes before departure.

Most turnrounds are already more than long enough. Also, I wouldn’t bet on non appearance of the 2nd Liverpools.

 

[Benjwri]

What seemingly no one is taking note of is that the majority of these options, especially total rebuilds, will make the existing problems far far worse while they are being implemented, to the point the only safe solution might be closing the station for a period of time, which is obviously very unlikely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What seemingly no one is taking note of is that the majority of these options, especially total rebuilds, will make the existing problems far far worse while they are being implemented, to the point the only safe solution might be closing the station for a period of time, which is obviously very unlikely.

You'd certainly need to close parts of it to do the platform level work, though maybe now's the time while land is available on which temporary platforms could be created?

New St was done without closing it, though, in terms of the concourse type work.

 

[Benjwri]

You'd certainly need to close parts of it to do the platform level work, though maybe now's the time while land is available on which temporary platforms could be created?

New St was done without closing it, though, in terms of the concourse type work.

The issue will be that the Euston issues revolve around its concourse, and those issues will be worsened by any work, through reduction in capacity and the confusion caused by passengers likely making crushes worse.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The issue will be that the Euston issues revolve around its concourse, and those issues will be worsened by any work, through reduction in capacity and the confusion caused by passengers likely making crushes worse.

Short term pain for long term gain seems a reasonable trade-off.

 

[Benjwri]

Short term pain for long term gain seems a reasonable trade-off.

Given the current rhetoric of it being unsafe as it is and only a matter of time till someone is injured or dies, is a significant worsening of the situation not unacceptable for any amount of time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given the current rhetoric of it being unsafe as it is and only a matter of time till someone is injured or dies, is a significant worsening of the situation not unacceptable for any amount of time.

It depends how it was worsened. You might be able to design something using land near the station or other parts of it that was less pleasant (e.g. more queueing, potentially in temporary buildings or tents) but safer.

 

[satisnek]

Well I would say return it to its as-built condition with an uncluttered, airy concourse.

But I'm not an accountant.

 

[Bald Rick]

The issue will be that the Euston issues revolve around its concourse, and those issues will be worsened by any work, through reduction in capacity and the confusion caused by passengers likely making crushes worse.

But thats the same at any station that needs upgrading. It can all be managed, as it has been at Reading, New St, London Bridge, Blackfriars, etc etc.

Given the current rhetoric of it being unsafe as it is and only a matter of time till someone is injured or dies, is a significant worsening of the situation not unacceptable for any amount of time.

Rhetoric is the right word. If it was unsafe it would be closed.

 

[Trainbike46]

Rhetoric is the right word. If it was unsafe it would be closed.

Unsafe is, of course, not an absolute word. Every busy station will have small safety incidents (e.g. slips/trips/falls).

In my view, Euston does not meet the safety standards I experience at other london termini. For example, a few months ago I arrived into euston on a train and we weren't able to leave the platform as the concourse was too busy - this clearly isn't a "safe" situation, but because most people are sensible and waited for some people to clear the concourse, nothing bad happened as far as I'm aware. Euston isn't massively dangerous, but it is less safe than other stations with similar passenger numbers, and it needs fixing, both for safety and for comfort.

I saw some reporting that they have started doing boarding earlier, which should improve the situation significantly. That's good to hear.

I agree with others that entrances at multiple points along the platform would be much better ideally you would separate entrance and exit as well, maybe by having the concourse above the platforms, with access downwards, and having the exits at the end of the platforms towards Euston road.

In my view, what needs to happen is:

Short term:
- Remove the terrible advertising board
- Call trains earlier, so fewer people have to wait in the concourse (don't suppress LNWR trains at all, at all times have a Birmingham and a Manchester Avanti train listed as boarding, they go every 20 minutes, so that means they need to be called more than 20 minutes before departure. Just keep the doors locked if cleaning is still ongoing)
- Get better departure boards
- Close the shops near the toilets and use the space to expand the concourse
- Expand the ladies toilets (there's frequent bad queueing for the ladies, but the gents seems to cope better)

Long term:
- Build HS2 Euston (ideally with 11 platforms)
- Make an entrance to Euston Square underground closer to Euston Mainline station
- Possibly build Crossrail 2

 

[Route115?]

I'm not sure about compulsory reservations - stations like Waterloo & Victoria cope perfectly well without. Perhaps the problem is the reverse, it costs so much if you miss your train with an advanced ticket that people arrive early so the concourse fills. Factor in delays and conditions get dangerous. Whether you could use the parcels area as an emergency holding pen is an interesting idea (I worked in Hardwicke House in the 90s).

 

[Trackman]

In my view, what needs to happen is:

Short term:
- Remove the terrible advertising board
- Call trains earlier, so fewer people have to wait in the concourse (don't suppress LNWR trains at all, at all times have a Birmingham and a Manchester Avanti train listed as boarding, they go every 20 minutes, so that means they need to be called more than 20 minutes before departure. Just keep the doors locked if cleaning is still ongoing)

I think everyone agrees with the departures boards, apart from Network Rail.

As for calling Avanti Man Picc trains earlier, they don't because they don't have enough staff to stop people boarding the wrong train, the gates (if not open) will let them through.
Was going to give you a live example from RTT to give you an idea of calling platform times between services, but sadly someone has been struck by a train between Rugby and Euston so WCML has ground to a halt.

 

[artemic]

The vast majority of people go straight into the Tube rather than out. The number of people leaving on foot is quite small, and most of those probably go to Euston Square. Actually here's one suggestion - build the proposed second Euston Square entrance right outside so that walk and double back along the platform is removed!

That's true, but the entrance to the Tube is now even worse! Either you slalom through the rain outside or subject yourself to the steps & half-lift. (Or get lucky with LNWR and end up on p8-11)
There ought to be proper access to all of the LU platforms - looking particularly at the Northern line via CX - at both Tube stations, but then we can't have everything can we

Both the Piazza and concourse at Euston are much too small & both rather unpleasant waiting areas (I appreciate a rather personal statement) which I find really odd because Euston has quite a lot of space 'out front' for such things compared to other termini. Obviously it was previously occupied but it's been a few years now!
Admittedly a lot of the problem is that the taxi rank has to go somewhere, having been moved from its [in]famous cavern accessed via Melton St. Hopefully the gardens will come back for a little while now that it's been moved again, and then we'll have a third mediocre place to wait.

 

[Trainbike46]

I think everyone agrees with the departures boards, apart from Network Rail.

As for calling Avanti Man Picc trains earlier, they don't because they don't have enough staff to stop people boarding the wrong train, the gates (if not open) will let them through.

When you say "the wrong train", do you mean a train their ticket isn't valid for (so LNWR-only ticket on Avanti, a ticket to a wrong destination, or an advance for a different train)?

If so, I'd say that Euston is unusual in doing manual entry checks, and other stations manage perfectly fine with a combination of ticket gates and on-board checks.

 

[Kingsbury Jn.]

Maybe a Birmingham Curzon St style terminal but with the trains underneath, not above. It would also give an air of symmetry to HS2.

 

[The Ham]

The big advantage of having the passengers waiting on a different level is that they can easily be spread out along the length of the platform, rather than all congregated at one end. Results in better loading and less of a rush to get seats. It also means you could easily have separate departure and arrival routes that don't conflict with each other. You could even have waiting areas for each platform, airport gate style, which could drastically improve the experience for long distance services (which are less likely to be affected by a last-minute platform change).

If you had a couple of bridges like Reading has, but with links between the two bridges, then you've got the chance to have several access points to the platforms but also lots of advertising and retail opportunities.

From what others have said, the issue here would be the lack of platform width to allow stairs to access the platforms. However, the sections of platforms under the bridge at Reading isn't very wide, however that almost doesn't matter as few would walk along that section as they mostly enter the platforms from the escalators and keep going in the direction they were traveling in.

Whilst Reading does feel a bit darker under the bridge, it does create a slightly more sheltered area from the UK weather.

 

[Trackman]

When you say "the wrong train", do you mean a train their ticket isn't valid for (so LNWR-only ticket on Avanti, a ticket to a wrong destination, or an advance for a different train)?

If so, I'd say that Euston is unusual in doing manual entry checks, and other stations manage perfectly fine with a combination of ticket gates and on-board checks.

Should have meant like people with advances when there are more one platformed trains to Man Picc.

 

[JKF]

It is however very useful. Any improvement really shouldn't make transport integration worse by pushing people out to overcrowded on street stops.

As someone who would occasionally get a bus past Euston, the dog leg into the station added many minutes on to the journey with several sets of traffic lights into/out of the station. It really could at least do with some kind of sorting out for buses to flow much better. The on-street stops at KX were much more efficient and it didn’t feel like a bad place to wait around.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As someone who would occasionally get a bus past Euston, the dog leg into the station added many minutes on to the journey with several sets of traffic lights into/out of the station. It really could at least do with some kind of sorting out for buses to flow much better. The on-street stops at KX were much more efficient and it didn’t feel like a bad place to wait around.

You could move the through buses into the road but a lot of buses terminate at Euston.

 

[sprunt]

As for calling Avanti Man Picc trains earlier, they don't because they don't have enough staff to stop people boarding the wrong train, the gates (if not open) will let them through.

Well, to be honest, tough luck. They shouldn't be able to let their staffing issues cause safety issues, and Manchester-Euston trains seem to be fine without manually checking everyone's ticket to make sure someone with an Advance isn't getting on the wrong train.

 

[WAO]

If you had a couple of bridges like Reading has, but with links between the two bridges, then you've got the chance to have several access points to the platforms but also lots of advertising and retail opportunities.

From what others have said, the issue here would be the lack of platform width to allow stairs to access the platforms. However, the sections of platforms under the bridge at Reading isn't very wide, however that almost doesn't matter as few would walk along that section as they mostly enter the platforms from the escalators and keep going in the direction they were traveling in.

Whilst Reading does feel a bit darker under the bridge, it does create a slightly more sheltered area from the UK weather.

I think,IIRC, that Reading (General) now has only one bridge, aka the Transfer Deck. It is very spacious, not apparently for customer convenience but for some detraining time specification (though retail space has taken up much). Still, there's plenty of space to wait, mostly for through trains, even in the warm and dry. The old canopies were mostly effective at keeping off the rain; the new architectural ones deflect it on to waiting passengers!

The difference is that Euston is a terminal (like Paddington) with quick turnrounds of busy trains and TOC differentiation, probably steps too far within the existing building. More waiting space and better passenger flows and distribution are now indicated. Perhaps we should move Euston to Old Oak Common for remaining Intercity rather than try to expensively connect them. After all, few Euston travellers are local, most accessing it by TfL rail and could use Crossrail nearly as easily.

I Remember the Great Hall!

WAO

 

[Harpo]

Rhetoric is the right word. If it was unsafe it would be closed.

Agreed. But so many of the stations users don’t appear to feel safe. There are obvious further risks to that perception.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If we were using OOC as a permanent terminal for a full HS2 service it would need a total redesign, or all you'd have is the same problem in a different location, but worse connected.

 

[HSTEd]

I honestly feel that if we could clean sheet Euston on the footprint available (from the station and the space cleared for HS2) we could build a station that could handle all that traffic and more besides. And I think it could do all that whilst still providing a superior passenger experience.

The gains from separating the arrivals and departures, staging passengers only 20-30m down escalators from all the train doors and huge concourse space could put throughput through the roof.

 

[GJMarshy]

I honestly feel that if we could clean sheet Euston on the footprint available (from the station and the space cleared for HS2) we could build a station that could handle all that traffic and more besides. And I think it could do all that whilst still providing a superior passenger experience.

The gains from separating the arrivals and departures, staging passengers only 20-30m down escalators from all the train doors and huge concourse space could put throughput through the roof.

What'd go a long way (short of the much needed HS2 expansion) is as you point out separating arrivals/departure flows. The reason the platforms are down long ramps, was to allow for a car park (60s planning) underneath the pedestrian concourse. It'd make a great ammount of sense to re-purpose that as a departures concourse & re-purpose the existing mixed concourse as arrivals.

This makes good logistical sense, as you'd then remove the safety element of people running down ramps, but rather walking more slowly up them upon arrival. Departing passengers would be level with the platforms and simply walk straight onto them. The downside of this is of course getting natural light down to the Departures concourse, but this could be achieved by essentially creating a large rectangular hole in the existing surface concourse, letting natural light down putting the arrivals (which require less space) on a ground floor "mezzanine" with escalators down to the departures area.

Another potential complication might be access to the tube concourse. It currently sits just below the car park level, so a lot of through would need to be out into how to provide access to it safely (two flights of escalators from arrivals) whilst not creating contra-flow issues. You might do this by providing a single escalator all the way down to the tube concourse from arrivals level, with another shorter escalator from departures, thus splitting the flows.

As ever there's probably no "simple" solution, but provided associated engineering works to make such a plan work isn't too disruptive, it might well do the job nicely, with further relief as HS2 comes online with long-distance passengers using a dedicated Western concourse, again helping split the flows.

Just my two pence!

 

[A S Leib]

Indeed, I wonder if LNER's higher priced/entirely absent walk ups means more people have reservations and that is why Kings X is nowhere near as bad?

Euston has 3 tph to Manchester, 4-5 tph to / via Birmingham, 4 tph to Watford (High Street / Junction)*, 1 each to Glasgow fast, Liverpool, Chester and Crewe and 4 tph to Tring / Milton Keynes. King's Cross just has 2 tph each to / via Edinburgh, Leeds and Ely, the Lincoln / York terminator, 2 tph to Letchworth / Cambridge and open access. 19-20 tph at Euston against 10-11 tph at King's Cross probably helps (although Waterloo has 30+ tph without being as bad as Euston).

*I doubt many irregular passengers use that service, whilst most regular ones probably know it's (almost?) always platform 9 anyway.

 

[Elecman]

In the interim reinstate platform 17 and ideally 18 as a temporary structure until HS2 actually needs that area for construction

 

[HSTEd]

Given that the HS2 development is not likely to happen in the new future, temporary platforms should be constructed there. That would allow a phased removal of the structures over the main part of the station.
Once the station is open air, we can proceed with a proper redevelopment.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Sep 2024 ==

I've been playing with the map a bit just to get an idea of what can be done.
If we assume a nominal island width of 22m including track (3.5m ish each for the two tracks and 15m of island), then it seems possible we can fit 12-14 ~500m class platforms, plus a handful of shorter platforms for things like Old Oak Common and the like.

500m would not only swallow a HS2 formation with ease, but it would allow classical ~250m trainsets to operate in multiple. Although obviously Pendolinos have no MU fit at present.

I'm not really sure what the platform requirements actually are though.
2 ~120m ones for the DC lines, a bunch of 400m platforms and then I assume some ~240m platforms for the shorter distance WCML service?

 

[A S Leib]

2 ~120m ones for the DC lines, a bunch of 400m platforms and then I assume some ~240m platforms for the shorter distance WCML service?

Is one platform for DC services all day sufficient? I can't see an increase in services north of Harrow & Wealdstone being necessary in the near future, and south of H&W I suspect TfL would rather have an increase of Bakerloo services and the Camberwell / Hayes extension.

 

[HSTEd]

Is one platform for DC services all day sufficient? I can't see an increase in services north of Harrow & Wealdstone being necessary in the near future, and south of H&W I suspect TfL would rather have an increase of Bakerloo services and the Camberwell / Hayes extension.

I guess there is a trade-off here. If we have one DC platform that means we are likely to have trains passing in the approach, which means the approach almost certainly has to be double track throughout.
If we have two DC platforms then we can probably get away with a few hundred metres of single track in the approach, which might let us segregate the DC lines completely from the rest of the station. That could also have some advantages.
Given the short length of the DC trains the platforms might not take much room if we can stick a dedicated island in a "corner" of the site.