• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

How to make Sheffield Victoria an attractive concept

Status
Not open for further replies.

YorksLad12

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2020
Messages
1,912
Location
Leeds
You could run a shuttle bus, but no-one ever catches them because (in my opinion) they're small and people don't being squashed up on a minibus. But you could run a shuttle every 15 minutes from Victoria direct to Midland, back via Arundel Gate or similar. The PVR would be 1 (though you'd probably swap vehicles early afternoon, especially if electric, or whenever you swap drivers).
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
4,970
Location
Sheffield
You could run a shuttle bus, but no-one ever catches them because (in my opinion) they're small and people don't being squashed up on a minibus. But you could run a shuttle every 15 minutes from Victoria direct to Midland, back via Arundel Gate or similar. The PVR would be 1 (though you'd probably swap vehicles early afternoon, especially if electric, or whenever you swap drivers).
There's a 10 minute frequency Sheffield Connect city centre minibus service that goes near Midland. It's a failure. I can't see it being any better from Victoria.

Those who favour a new Victoria for restored services are living in a previous century - possibly the 19th. Come to Sheffield and walk around in the 21st.
 

Bryson

Member
Joined
24 Jan 2022
Messages
89
Location
Yorkshire
I'd lake to add that there has never been a route through Stocksbridge to Penistone in any case. The Woodhead route only served Deepcar and this Station was not well sited for the Town.

1685005575399.png
The circled area on the left is the site of the old Deepcar station - now a private home.

The circled area in the middle is the proposed location for a new Stocksbridge station.

It should also be noted that the old Woodhead alignment beyond Deepcar is incomplete, not least due to the building of the A616 right through it.
 

Sm5

Member
Joined
21 Oct 2016
Messages
1,013
The station hotel at victoria is pretty nice.
why change anything, its got a big car park, because everyone drives.
 

JD2168

Member
Joined
11 Jul 2022
Messages
997
Location
Sheffield
I find it hard to believe that the Huddersfield-Sheffield journey time would be slower on the direct route through Stocksbridge, than the long way round via Barnsley and Meadowhall, regardless of line speeds.

Is the site of Sheffield Victoria really that inconvenient for the city or even for transferring to Midland or getting the Supertram? A lot of people keep saying this but it's hardly completely out of the city centre - a 15 minute walk to the area around the Crucible theatre,or a 20 minute walk to Midland isn't that bad.
The issue with Sheffield Victoria at Wicker Arches area is that it is not a pleasant area to walk around. You would also have to go via Castlegate which is run down & has a lot of problem drinkers in the area. Also with it being Sheffield it is not a flat walk.

As another poster mentioned the Connect service has been a failure, generally runs round carrying no one for most of the day, most I have sen is four.
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
4,970
Location
Sheffield
As another poster mentioned the Connect service has been a failure, generally runs round carrying no one for most of the day, most I have sen is four.

One of the 4 was the drver, 2 were an older couple tryimg a tour of the city centre and me - checking where it went! I'd not use it again. But that's a djgression. I'd only go to the Victoria area by car for tbe hotel. The derelict area of tbe former station is sad and depressing It desperately needs regeneration but threading a railway in is nostalgic dreaming.

Both the Woodhead and Hope Valley lines were primarily built to haul heavy loads of coal from east to west. Neither was designed for fast inter city passenger services. Both have too many curves and gradients for that.

There is no appetite to pour billions into a brand new more direct deep tunnel between the two cities Iif Platforms 15/16 at Piccadilly can't get built restoring Victoria is ah total non starter.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
13,593
Location
Bristol
But the platform use as originally proposed still has fewer conflicts than the one posted above. Some conflicts are inevitable as you say, but the ones being introduced are avoidable.
Do we have confirmed detailed design for the platforms yet? I can't remember what stage the planning applications are at.

Also, we're massively off topic from Sheff Vic
 

LOL The Irony

On Moderation
Joined
29 Jul 2017
Messages
5,335
Location
Chinatown, New York
I don't see a need for a new Victoria unless Woodhead reopens, so services going that way to Manchester can serve Sheffield. That's the only way it can possibly reopen imo.
 

mike57

Established Member
Joined
13 Mar 2015
Messages
1,731
Location
East coast of Yorkshire
or a 20 minute walk to Midland isn't that bad.
Try that on a wet day with luggage... Trouble is an out of station interchange adds significant time to through journeys, and that significantly reduces the attractiveness of rail for that particular journey. Taxi is an option but adds cost. The only way it might work is with a tram link between the two, with the tram fare included in the rail ticket. Manchester has the same problem, and you have to allow at least 30 mins and ideally 45 mins for transfers between Vic and Pic, and it is not convenient, you have to buy a ticket and know where you are going.

The only way I can see Victoria 'reopening' is as part of the tram network
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,503
The only way I can see Victoria 'reopening' is as part of the tram network
I concur - Nunnery, Victoria, Neepsend.

But alas this is still very much in fantasy territory.
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
4,970
Location
Sheffield
I concur - Nunnery, Victoria, Neepsend.

But alas this is still very much in fantasy territory.

The amazing fantasy of an HS2 Victoria instead of Meadowhall seemed to be taken sufficiently seriously to add extra justification for pausing, deferring and currently stopping the eatern leg. Sheffield won't see any HS2 trains before 2040-50 at the current rate of progress!.

In hilly Sheffield Victoria was built in the heavily industrialised Don valley on a line primarily built to carry coal and freight. It al but stopped doing that half a century ago, retained for one customer. As long as it may need rail access, or any new industrial user, it's right to preserve the line for now.

Restoring Victoria for any passenger service would be a massively expensive nostalgic diversion of effort and resources from the very real need to improve access to, and layout of, Midland. That's needed well before 2040-50.
 

Philip

On Moderation
Joined
27 May 2007
Messages
3,655
Location
Manchester
Do people think that the line to Stocksbridge should have the stations beyond Victoria reopened, even if Victoria itself isn't restored? The line serves northern suburbs of Sheffield and Stocksbridge is a reasonably large town and would benefit from a rail/tram link into Sheffield city centre. A new station/tram interchange could be opened at Hillsborough to provide a connection to the stadium and to allow passengers from Stocksbridge to transfer onto the Supertram for onward travel to the city centre.
 

Bartsimho

Member
Joined
17 Jan 2023
Messages
569
Location
Chesterfield
Do people think that the line to Stocksbridge should have the stations beyond Victoria reopened, even if Victoria itself isn't restored? The line serves northern suburbs of Sheffield and Stocksbridge is a reasonably large town and would benefit from a rail/tram link into Sheffield city centre. A new station/tram interchange could be opened at Hillsborough to provide a connection to the stadium and to allow passengers from Stocksbridge to transfer onto the Supertram for onward travel to the city centre.
Pretty much just Stocksbridge and Hillsborough but if it's Tram Train also Oughtibridge.
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,503
Do people think that the line to Stocksbridge should have the stations beyond Victoria reopened, even if Victoria itself isn't restored?
If you'll excuse my rather eccentric comment... the Upper Don cat has already seen dozens of proposals for its skinning. Not sure if we need to rehash them yet again!
 

IanXC

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
18 Dec 2009
Messages
6,344
Theres a few posters that have stated they don't see the need for a reopened Sheffield Victoria - presumably a reopened Stocksbridge branch wouldn't need a station serving Sheffield city centre??

The major problem in all of this is capacity at Nunnery Mainline Junction. Other than spending a hideous amount of money on a project that might not even turn out to be feasible, I'm not sure any resolution of this problem has come up?

Finally, as far as connections go, Stocksbridge is now increasingly being talked about with the Barrow Hill proposal. Without increased capacity at Nunnery Main, the option is to run a Stocksbridge to Chesterfield service - thus said connections would be available at Chesterfield.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
13,593
Location
Bristol
Theres a few posters that have stated they don't see the need for a reopened Sheffield Victoria - presumably a reopened Stocksbridge branch wouldn't need a station serving Sheffield city centre??
The case for Stocksbridge is very poor.
Finally, as far as connections go, Stocksbridge is now increasingly being talked about with the Barrow Hill proposal. Without increased capacity at Nunnery Main, the option is to run a Stocksbridge to Chesterfield service - thus said connections would be available at Chesterfield.
Not every trains stops at Chesterfield, and Sheffield is the more popular city centre destination as well. If the Barrow Hill line doesn't serve Midland, what value is it adding over the tram, which serves largely the same corridor?
 

YorksLad12

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2020
Messages
1,912
Location
Leeds
https://tools.pdf24.org/en/split-pdf PDF24 is a great suite of free tools for your PDF manipulation needs.
Eureka! No, not that one. This pdf is an extract from South Yorkshire County Council's Sheffield/Rotherham Land Use Transportation Study Transport Plan Kit. Whether they'd looked at the Victoria-Midland loop properly or were just proto-crayonistas, I couldn't say.
 

Attachments

  • 09.pdf
    540.6 KB · Views: 36

Bryson

Member
Joined
24 Jan 2022
Messages
89
Location
Yorkshire
Eureka! No, not that one. This pdf is an extract from South Yorkshire County Council's Sheffield/Rotherham Land Use Transportation Study Transport Plan Kit. Whether they'd looked at the Victoria-Midland loop properly or were just proto-crayonistas, I couldn't say.
Wow! Looks great.... but will never happen.
 

Bartsimho

Member
Joined
17 Jan 2023
Messages
569
Location
Chesterfield
Not every trains stops at Chesterfield, and Sheffield is the more popular city centre destination as well. If the Barrow Hill line doesn't serve Midland, what value is it adding over the tram, which serves largely the same corridor?
You mean just some XC in their Demand Suppression strategy.

All other trains except freight stops here including many Charters for Chatsworth.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
13,593
Location
Bristol
You mean just some XC in their Demand Suppression strategy.
Not just demand suppression, but meeting the market - journey times between places north and Birmingham or the South West are more valuable than the traffic on offer from Chesterfield, given the stops at Sheffield and Derby. I have relatives in Dronfield/Coal Aston and Eckington, and also have travelled through to York regularly on the XC. Sheffield is several orders of magnitude busier than Chesterfield (though the town itself is quite nice, much underrated).

A better local service on the Old Road would be great, but the key interchange is Sheffield Midland, and the key destination is Sheffield City Centre. If the local Barrow Hill service goes to Victoria, then the journey times to Midland and the City Centre will be substantially less competitive than the tram, which already serves the same general corridor near Killingworth and gets down to Crystal Peaks P&R (although it's a long ride in from there).
All other trains except freight stops here including many Charters for Chatsworth.
Charters for Chatsworth are irrelevant to this discussion.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
Theres a few posters that have stated they don't see the need for a reopened Sheffield Victoria - presumably a reopened Stocksbridge branch wouldn't need a station serving Sheffield city centre??

I think that there are two fairly distinct things getting discussed here

A “simple” Stocksbridge - Barrow Hill (Chesterfield) service seems a relatively low cost reopening (I mean, it’s going to cost a fortune, it’ll be terrible value for money, it’ll avoid a lot of residential areas en route, the trains will need subsidy, but at least the track bed is intact, will need a lot of money spent to upgrade it but no major obstacles compared to some reopenings

A station at Victoria seems the most realistic option for that (unless you are going to divert/extend Supertram then the only other option would be a station behind the tram depot and a bridge to the tram station there, but that’s not exactly ideal either), pedants can argue whether Victoria is “a station serving Sheffield city centre” but it seems priced in to a Stocksbridge - Barrow Hill line

As these are new services, the lack of connection to Midland isn’t quite as bad as if you took someone’s existing Midland service away - clearly it’s not ideal but nobody would “lose” (they just wouldn’t gain as much as they’d like)

Then the crayons come out and we seem to move into the territory of “let’s divert existing Huddersfield trains to Victoria”, “let’s run mega-fast Manchester trains to Victoria”, “let’s put the existing Lincoln trains and the Doncaster stoppers at Victoria too”… The kind of things where we are either massively inconveniencing existing passengers (by forcing them to use a station far on the outskirts of the city centre, one that lacks the connections currently available at Midland) or require spending huge sums on some kind of Victoria - Midland link, generally suggested by people who’ve presumably never been near Derek Dooley Way/ Canal Basin/ Parkway area and don’t appreciate the height differences or the logistics required to cut across two busy dual carriageways and the canal

Then there’s the people who come up with mega-projects to compensate for the fact that Curzon Street/ New Street or Euston/ St Pancras or Victoria/ Piccadilly aren’t next door to each other but seem very relaxed about Sheffield passengers having to schlep all the ways from Midland to Victoria, presumably over the Park Square footbridges which I’m sure will be wonderful for any women doing the journey alone after four o’clock in winter… whereas Manchester “deserves” an expensive underground tunnel beside the current free buses/ trams/ trains linking Victoria with Piccadilly/ Castlefield seemingly aren’t enough…
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top