How to 'prove' my route is valid?

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AshValePsngr

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Hi All,

This is an amazing website and I spent a long time reading last night, downloading all the routeing guide pdfs and doing my best to digest them.

I had bought an return ticket from the national rail website. I followed the suggest route, but the ticket inspector on the train (RPI? not sure what this stands for) told me my ticket wasn't valid for that route.

I told him I'd confirmed the ticket online, and with a guard on the outward journey, but he said he'd been a train guard for 17 years and knew it wasn't valid. He refused to check anything. Luckily we pulled in to my station while we were discussing this and I got off. Is my ticket definitely valid, and what should I do next time if the same thing happens?

Many thanks in advance.
 
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MidnightFlyer

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I don't think that's valid looking at it, only valid on that route as far as Wokingham, where you then must travel via Ascot and Staines into Waterloo.

Edit - Maps WW + WX confirm that. You were off-route AFAICS.
 

Lrd

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I don't think that's valid looking at it, only valid on that route as far as Wokingham, where you then must travel via Ascot and Staines into Waterloo.
Thats what I was thinking, but NRE provides it as valid route (Ash Vale - Paddington). Single is an Anytime Day Single, return was an Off-Peak Day Travelcard.

NRE is the definitive source, so if they say its ok, then it must be?
 

sonic2009

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I'm in agreement that it is not valid via Reading.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ash Vale - London Group : WW + WX

From what i can see neither map, gives a direct link from Reading to Paddington.
 

AshValePsngr

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I'm in agreement that it is not valid via Reading.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ash Vale - London Group : WW + WX

From what i can see neither map, gives a direct link from Reading to Paddington.
That is what I feared from my reading last night, but the website gives it as a valid route, so I don't understand. The only thing I could think of (and I know I don't really understand the routeing guide) was that it is the shortest route to my station via rail (or within 3 miles). Does that not count because it is part of a route point group containing a station which is closer?

Thanks for all the replies so far!
 
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tony_mac

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To answer the question, take a printout from NRES, and if they don't accept it, ask them to call and check - customers are supposed to be able to rely on NRES.
Or, even better, buy your tickets online from FGW and get seat reservations (even if you don't travel on those trains, it shows conclusively that their booking engine sold it).

But, no, it doesn't look as if it should be valid.
 
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swt_passenger

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SWT will sell the cheaper fare for this route as well, according to their planner.

Agree it seems an error, but at least that suggests it isn't just a problem with NRES...

If Big Brother at ATOC really does read these threads it will suddenly get fixed...
 

ainsworth74

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It suggests it's a problem with Jeppesen IPTIS, the journey planning and routeing guide "engine" used by both NRE and the trainline (who run SWT's booking site).
Seems like it probably is I've just tried it on Webtis (as found on EC's website) and it came up telling me that 'no fares had been found'. Whilst the same search on NRE yielded the result that the OP found.
 

AshValePsngr

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SWT will sell the cheaper fare for this route as well, according to their planner.

Agree it seems an error, but at least that suggests it isn't just a problem with NRES...

If Big Brother at ATOC really does read these threads it will suddenly get fixed...
Maybe I should ask the moderator to delete this thread! :roll:
 

cuccir

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Hmmm. You should definitely print the itinerary from National Rail Enquiries when travelling

However, if you've been informed by staff that the route isn't valid, particularly if this occurs a couple of times, then I'm not so confident that you'd be justified in continuing to use it. After all, NRES does have the standard disclaimers and whilst these don't mean that its advice carries no weight, I think they do mean that it's reasonable to say that people shouldn't blindly follow its advice after it has been contradicted by staff - particularly if you've then sought out the routeing guide and found it to not be a valid route.
 

All Line Rover

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Hmmm. You should definitely print the itinerary from National Rail Enquiries when travelling

However, if you've been informed by staff that the route isn't valid, particularly if this occurs a couple of times, then I'm not so confident that you'd be justified in continuing to use it. After all, NRES does have the standard disclaimers and whilst these don't mean that its advice carries no weight, I think they do mean that it's reasonable to say that people shouldn't blindly follow its advice after it has been contradicted by staff - particularly if you've then sought out the routeing guide and found it to not be a valid route.
What disclaimers?:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/about/ said:
About National Rail Enquiries

National Rail Enquiries (NRE) is the definitive source of information for all passenger rail services on the National Rail network in England, Wales and Scotland.
And yes, I do suggest this thread is deleted if the OP wishes to continue using this ticket. The OP can always edit his/her post and replace the text with "DELETED."
 

AshValePsngr

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Hmmm. You should definitely print the itinerary from National Rail Enquiries when travelling

However, if you've been informed by staff that the route isn't valid, particularly if this occurs a couple of times, then I'm not so confident that you'd be justified in continuing to use it. After all, NRES does have the standard disclaimers and whilst these don't mean that its advice carries no weight, I think they do mean that it's reasonable to say that people shouldn't blindly follow its advice after it has been contradicted by staff - particularly if you've then sought out the routeing guide and found it to not be a valid route.
Please don't misunderstand me! I've done this route about 50 times now, and spoken to quite a few RPIs and ticket staff at stations. This is the first time I've been told it's not valid. I also don't claim to understand the routing guide. I believe there is a standard routes guide somewhere that may contain the route for all I know?

I've just called customer services and they confirmed it definitely is valid, they asked me to let them know if I have any other problems in the future so they can confirm to the RPI that it is a valid route.

Printing the NRE page sounds like a good idea.
 

island

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Expect a negative easement to show up in due course saying that journeys to/from Ash Vale or North Camp may not go via the other!
 

cuccir

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@ All Line Rover

Those in the site Terms and Conditions eg " You should note however that TISL does not warrant that such information will be error free and the user acknowledges that the information, products, and services published or made available on this Web Site may include inaccuracies or typographical errors."

I entirely agree that in the first instance, it is reasonable for a passenger to use the site expecting its information to be accurate. Nobody who has planned travel through National Rail Enquiries should be prevented from travelling if it claims a route is valid.

But in the face of this being challenged by staff, my suggestion is that it is then incumbent on someone intending to use the route again to check up whether their route is valid - which AshValePsngr has gone on and done, btw. Simply repeating 'NRE is the definitive source' isn't enough, I'd argue.

Please don't misunderstand me! I've done this route about 50 times now, and spoken to quite a few RPIs and ticket staff at stations. This is the first time I've been told it's not valid. I also don't claim to understand the routing guide. I believe there is a standard routes guide somewhere that may contain the route for all I know?

I've just called customer services and they confirmed it definitely is valid, they asked me to let them know if I have any other problems in the future so they can confirm to the RPI that it is a valid route.

Printing the NRE page sounds like a good idea.
Fair enough - I wasn't trying to suggest that you were avoiding responsibility, merely suggesting that the argument that NRE must continuously trump all other sources is not great advice. From your first post, it read like this was a new journey that you were doing. I think that calling customer services is more than an adequate 'back-up' to the route being presented on NRE.

Yes, print off the NRE page for future journeys, but keep an eye on it - if it is not intended that this route is valid, it may well be changed.
 

swt_passenger

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I've just called customer services and they confirmed it definitely is valid, they asked me to let them know if I have any other problems in the future so they can confirm to the RPI that it is a valid route.
They'd probably just do a query using the same journey planners as we did - but if you were to ask FGW's pricing manager if this (SWT priced?) ticket is valid, given that the North Camp to Paddington is significantly higher, you might get a very different answer...
 

MarkyMarkD

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The reason he gave was because if I buy a ticket from North Camp via Reading to Paddington (a 5-10 minute walk) the price is £44.50 rather than the 25.50 I paid, so how can it possibly be valid to use a cheaper ticket to do essentially the same journey?
This is a completely incorrect explanation for why the ticket is invalid. I got the same challenge from a barrier assistant yesterday - and she also refused to check anything or discuss matters further.

The TOCs should be training their staff to explain ticketing issues better. "Your fare is too cheap" is not generally a valid reason why a fare is not valid.
 

island

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It does seem rather unfair on FGW in this case if they are getting little or nothing from the cost of the ticket.
 

bb21

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@ All Line Rover

Those in the site Terms and Conditions eg " You should note however that TISL does not warrant that such information will be error free and the user acknowledges that the information, products, and services published or made available on this Web Site may include inaccuracies or typographical errors."

I entirely agree that in the first instance, it is reasonable for a passenger to use the site expecting its information to be accurate. Nobody who has planned travel through National Rail Enquiries should be prevented from travelling if it claims a route is valid.

But in the face of this being challenged by staff, my suggestion is that it is then incumbent on someone intending to use the route again to check up whether their route is valid - which AshValePsngr has gone on and done, btw. Simply repeating 'NRE is the definitive source' isn't enough, I'd argue.



Fair enough - I wasn't trying to suggest that you were avoiding responsibility, merely suggesting that the argument that NRE must continuously trump all other sources is not great advice. From your first post, it read like this was a new journey that you were doing. I think that calling customer services is more than an adequate 'back-up' to the route being presented on NRE.

Yes, print off the NRE page for future journeys, but keep an eye on it - if it is not intended that this route is valid, it may well be changed.
I would be cautious and agree with this.

@OP. If customer service says that the route is valid, maybe ask them if they could send you written confirmation which you can produce to staff onboard. This way it helps avoid arguments on the train.
 

ralphchadkirk

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@ All Line Rover

Those in the site Terms and Conditions eg " You should note however that TISL does not warrant that such information will be error free and the user acknowledges that the information, products, and services published or made available on this Web Site may include inaccuracies or typographical errors."

I entirely agree that in the first instance, it is reasonable for a passenger to use the site expecting its information to be accurate. Nobody who has planned travel through National Rail Enquiries should be prevented from travelling if it claims a route is valid.

But in the face of this being challenged by staff, my suggestion is that it is then incumbent on someone intending to use the route again to check up whether their route is valid - which AshValePsngr has gone on and done, btw. Simply repeating 'NRE is the definitive source' isn't enough, I'd argue.
I entirely agree with the above interpretation. Rightly or wrongly, the terms and conditions are there to be read, understood and respected. In this case whilst a reasonable argument could be made for the opposing interpretation I think that it is inappropriate to try and claim that whatever NRE says goes as that is at best unclear and at worst, wrong.
 
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