How to provide a location to 999

[najaB]

You do need a device with the app installed to understand a What3Words address.

That's the 'lock in' I mentioned above.

 

[bspahh]

There is clearly a profit motive here - their investment in infrastructure and advertising will have been quite substantial. How do they intend to monetise this investment?

They want users to download the app, and use calling emergency services as a reason to do that. Then if you use the app to for day-to-day stuff. An example that I saw quoted was to arrange where you want to meet someone on the concourse at Kings Cross, I suspect that they will then sell advertising to nearby businesses, using your profile and location.

 

[Mojo]

You do need a device with the app installed to understand a What3Words address. There's no way to load a what3words address into a GPS handset and it's not compatible with a lot of preexisting mapping software.

Also, if someone gives you an address but there's no signal to load the map, there's no other way of figuring out where they are or how to get there. You can't translate an address into OS Coordinates easily in app.

I don’t see how this is an issue, because if you are calling for help then you will have your location from the What3words App even if you are offline.

If someone is calling for help, then the person receiving the call will already have signal as they will be in a control room somewhere which is permanently connected.

 

[najaB]

I don’t see how this is an issue, because if you are calling for help then you will have your location from the What3words App even if you are offline.

If someone is calling for help, then the person receiving the call will already have signal as they will be in a control room somewhere which is permanently connected.

I'm imagining the idea is Person A (who is lost) calling Person B (who is also lost). With GPS coordinates, even without a map you can figure out their direction and distance. Since the coordinate to address mapping is a proprietary algorithm, that's not possible with W3W addresses - unless the app allows you to do that?

 

[si404]

If someone is calling for help, then the person receiving the call will already have signal as they will be in a control room somewhere which is permanently connected.

They'd also be able to have actual GPS coordinates (without need to use W3Ws private database) via Advanced Mobile Location.

And what if the control room/dispatch centre just sent forwarded the W3W address to a nearby team of responders, who didn't have data signal to convert it? After all, people are being told by 999 to download the app, while not checking other stuff they might already have (including the AML that does it automatically). The marketing of this pointless app is almost dangerous - a good minute was wasted getting the caller to download an app and use it, rather than look at the geolocation data their phones automatically sent when they made the call.

 

[ASharpe]

They want users to download the app, and use calling emergency services as a reason to do that. Then if you use the app to for day-to-day stuff. An example that I saw quoted was to arrange where you want to meet someone on the concourse at Kings Cross, I suspect that they will then sell advertising to nearby businesses, using your profile and location.

I think they want to replace the Postcode Address File as the main way to plan deliveries. I half hope that they do provide a bit of competition and Royal Mail decide to up their game and provide a better product.

An example that I saw quoted was to arrange where you want to meet someone on the concourse at Kings Cross.

If I said to meet at zealous.slug.aims you would have at best 50:50 chance of getting it right first time. It couldn't replace the address for a flat or apartment only supplement it.

 

[najaB]

I think they want to replace the Postcode Address File as the main way to plan deliveries.

The level of precision is way too high for that to be the primary aim. My home would have at least six different W3W addresses. Plus there's zero correspondence with street addresses which is how most people's lives are organised.

 

[ASharpe]

The level of precision is way too high for that to be the primary aim. My home would have at least six different W3W addresses. Plus there's zero correspondence with street addresses which is how most people's lives are organised.

They way their rep (in Dubai) sold it to me was they it would give a higher level of precision and he gave examples in other countries where it sounded like a good idea.

If anyone really wants to make money in the logistics of finding an address it would be providing the last couple of waypoints to where the van needs to be driven and parked. The new houses on Barry Island is a good example where the nearest road on map can easily be the wrong side of the railway line. Less of a problem now but it took 2 years for up to date maps to come out. Remote farms with long drive ways fall into the same category.

 

[najaB]

If anyone really wants to make money in the logistics of finding an address it would be providing the last couple of waypoints to where the van needs to be driven and parked.

Question is, though, how is a three-word address determined by a propriety algorithm objectively better than a lat/long pair for this purpose?

After all, if someone tells me to park at 56.471283, -2.965911 to access 56.472370, -2.970082, then I know they are pretty close to each other (and can actually work out how far apart) but how far is down.hoot.ties from insist.towers.edges?

 

[alxndr]

Question is, though, how is a three-word address determined by a propriety algorithm objectively better than a lat/long pair for this purpose?

After all, if someone tells me to park at 56.471283, -2.965911 to access 56.472370, -2.970082, then I know they are pretty close to each other (and can actually work out how far apart) but how far is down.hoot.ties from insist.towers.edges?

There are pros and cons to each system.

Lat/Long gives some indication as to the distance between a pair and the direction (provided someone understands them enough to be able to glean this information from them) whereas W3W does not.

However, someone telling you to park at 56.471283, -2.965911 has to say a minimum of 20 words, and a mistake could happen with any of them. Someone telling you to park at down.hoot.ties only has to say three words. Plus, if they mishear they're quite likely to question the fact you've told them to park in Illinois (down.hoot.tries)! If there is confusion about a word it can always be spelt out where necessary.

In my opinion, lat/long is better suited to written instructions or "advance users" (for lack of a better term), and W3W is more suited to verbal communication or the casual user. I know my mother wouldn't have a clue how to obtain the coordinates of her location, but we've just about managed to get the idea of W3W into her head. In an emergency, it's just possible that she would remember our discussion about it, remember she has the app, open it and instantly be greeted with her three words and manage to give someone her location that way.

 

[Belperpete]

The power of cubes means that x ^ 3 can be a big number, for a small value of x.

The surface area of the Earth is ~5.1e14 square metres. W3W says they've divided the earth into 3x3 metre squares, so you can divide that number by 9 - meaning that there are 5.3e13 squares at most, the cube root of which is 38,410.

So they only need a database of ~38,500 words.

Agreed that they only need circa 38,500 words, but they still need a database of 5.3e13 squares to map onto those 38,500 words?

 

[Belperpete]

Android automatically sends GPS co-ords via a background text on 999 calls and iPhone SOS emergency sends it too (AML).

Are they the same co-ordinates that Google maps uses to work out where I am? When I am at home, that routinely tells me I am in a village 3 miles away.

 

[hst43102]

Are they the same co-ordinates that Google maps uses to work out where I am? When I am at home, that routinely tells me I am in a village 3 miles away.

I believe it may be to do with your IP address. I live in Wellingborough, but Google regularly places my home location in surrounding places such as Milton Keynes or Coventry. It's even placed my location as far away as Watford and Wolverhampton.

 

[etr221]

Agreed that they only need circa 38,500 words, but they still need a database of 5.3e13 squares to map onto those 38,500 words?

They have a (proprietary, secret) algorithm to convert 'raw' address to words. The download for a second language on my phone is (depending on language) between 0.5 and 8.0 Mb.

 

[najaB]

Agreed that they only need circa 38,500 words, but they still need a database of 5.3e13 squares to map onto those 38,500 words?

No, because all they are doing is using an algorithm to map the lat/long coordinates onto the table of words. So they don't store the full table of what words are mapped to what square, it's done in real-time.

 

[najaB]

Are they the same co-ordinates that Google maps uses to work out where I am? When I am at home, that routinely tells me I am in a village 3 miles away.

No. When you dial 999 your phone will automatically turn on high-precision geolocation and use whichever method gives the highest precision (usually WiFi network or GPS).

 

[etr221]

Thoughts...
Firstly, getting back to the topic question, the emergency services control (i.e. 999), should be ready - certainly in my opinion - to accept locations in whatever form they might reasonably come - if the phone system can tell them (by AML or otherwise), good (it's probably the best option), otherwise any system in common use: street address (preferably with post code, but without if not available[1]), Lat/Long (in degrees with minutes and seconds, or just decimals - from GPS or ?), OS National Grid, What3words, Mapcode, (Google) Plus Codes, ... and desirably including UTM and MGRS/USNG (a more friendly (?) version) - I have apps for all these on my phone. (I'll let them off not being able to handle War Office Cassini or Russian military grid, or other such exotics). But, given that, they shouldn't be relying on the person calling to know their location in any particular format. They may even have to take down directions!
Having taken a location - in whatever form - it's up to them to convert it whatever form they (and their colleagues, in whichever service) use/find useful...

Secondly the purpose of identifying a location is either for record keeping (of some sort), or so it can be found - in either case, some sort of context is required. Just saying 'I am here' is (a) always true and (b) always useless: it is only by having context, i.e. information as to where other places are, that you have something useful.
Some systems of identifying locations provide a fair amount of context by being hierarchical, i.e. being more or less precise: but, more generally, they are only useful when locations are marked on some sort of a map - mental, paper or electronic, so you can see where they are in relation to other places, and hence how to reach them. Or have something else to express this, eg. a navigation app.
All systems have this need - or they end up being no more than strings of numbers and letters (words) - which perhaps puts the debate over w3w and lat/long above in some sort of context.

Both will do the job: claros.honor.llegada and 51.427164, -0.38038700 (or 51°25′37.7904″N, 0°22′49.3932″W) will equally get you to TQ12697103: but without more, you're no nearer to knowing the adjacent street (or nearest station). And neither is more obviously wrong if you really wanted TQ19955716 (claros.honor.llegado or 51.300951, -0.28064600), less than 20 km away, in the same county. So much for one w3w's claims, that a minor error in the words will be obvious, by being far distant.
Each has its advantages and disadvantages...

But I would suggest there are many issues with w3w (see also https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2019/03/why-bother-with-what-three-words/ , https://knowwhereconsulting.co.uk/blog/location-grid-not-an-address/ or https://blog.ldodds.com/2016/06/14/what-3-words-jog-on-mate/ ) , starting with the fact that it is a closed, proprietary system - if you want to know which three words for somewhere, or where these.three.words is [2], you have to use their system (and may well need to be on-line, and hope they are too). (And what if they go bust?). While words may be memorable, or easily communicated (by speech), is this always the case? Some of those 38000 are going to be unfamiliar, and as they are just (effectively) random words, not so memorable (was it wordy or words?). And their system - of identified 3m squares - means you're either precisely right, or totally wrong... and if you want to be more precise, tough. Words have meanings and connotations - in their trillions of triplet combinations for various locations, how many are unfortunate (or worse)? (Can you stay at coach.house.hotel ?) And while w3w is available for various languages, this means different sets of words (in the 'other' languages), that are in equally random (not translatable) combinations - and if a foreign native speaker tells you they're at mpelaveki.kuninzi.ityesi , hasonló.üvegház.tény , xeđẩy.vaivế.bộtnếp , let alone διπλώνω.σκοράρω.χρήσιμες or ਗਾਈਡ.ਅਪਣਾਪਨ.ਮਧਾਣੀ , how far would you get? (In my case, possibly as far as recognising a language)

So while it does have its place, I think w3w is something of a triumph of hype and marketing, more than offering any great benefit.

[1] but postcodes can reduce street address confusion - see http://www.paulplowman.com/stuff/house-address-twins-proximity/ for particular examples...
[2] or rather, its typos...

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

I don’t see how this is an issue, because if you are calling for help then you will have your location from the What3words App even if you are offline.

If someone is calling for help, then the person receiving the call will already have signal as they will be in a control room somewhere which is permanently connected.

Not always,

Mountain Rescue teams often get in contact directly with casualties to try to determine their condition and/or location, they're outside the control room so W3W would likely be useless to them. Even if they can get it on their phone it's not possible to get a grid reference directly from the app that they could plot onto a map or GPS device. Other emergency services will often do the same.

WHY use What3Words??? Why use a proprietary platform which has known issues when there's a universally accepted alternative?

Download OS Locate instead.

 

[najaB]

So while it does have its place, I think w3w is something of a triumph of hype and marketing, more than offering any great benefit.

100% agreement here.

 

[etr221]

Download OS Locate instead.

I prefer GridReferenceFreeOS myself - it gives me a grid reference (number of figures based on settings), with a lat & long in case I really want them - no bells, no whistles, but that's all I want from it...

 

[Mojo]

I can see the problem with providing a grid reference, in that not only is it quite long and not exactly clear what information you are to provide - I would say that someone who doesn’t fully understand it would they actually know to provide the two letters as well as the 6 digits?

A 6 digit grid reference only provides you with detail down to a square 100m by 100m.

 

[fireftrm]

You do need a device with the app installed to understand a What3Words address. There's no way to load a what3words address into a GPS handset and it's not compatible with a lot of preexisting mapping software.

Also, if someone gives you an address but there's no signal to load the map, there's no other way of figuring out where they are or how to get there. You can't translate an address into OS Coordinates easily in app.

You do not need the app installed, you can go to the website and type the 3 words in. You can also type in the 3 words and covert to GPS co-ordinates, 25 of each free at a time. The Emergency Services are coping really rather well with this and promoting its use, so rest assured conversion to resource mobilisation is absolutely working. Please don't keep coming up with 'you can't' when actually it is already being done

 

[najaB]

A 6 digit grid reference only provides you with detail down to a square 100m by 100m.

For most of the safety of life applications that they use to scam advertise W3W, that would be way more accurate than would actually be necessary 99.9% of the time. It would be a very rare occurrence that Mountain Rescue would be within 50m and not be able to find the person in distress.

 

[fireftrm]

I can see the problem with providing a grid reference, in that not only is it quite long and not exactly clear what information you are to provide - I would say that someone who doesn’t fully understand it would they actually know to provide the two letters as well as the 6 digits?

A 6 digit grid reference only provides you with detail down to a square 100m by 100m.

Exactly and even of those who walk in remote areas carrying a map few can actually read it propoerly, let alone provide a grid reference from it.

 

[najaB]

Please don't keep coming up with 'you can't' when actually it is already being done

For me it's not a case of "you can't" when actually the question should be "why would you want to"? Tie-in to a closed proprietary algorithm is never a good idea, especially when safety of life is concerned.

 

[fireftrm]

For most of the safety of life applications that they use to scam advertise W3W, that would be way more accurate than is would actually be necessary 99.9% of the time. It would be a very rare occurrence that Mountain Rescue would be within 50m and not be able to find the person in distress.

Quite true, but the point is that the sort of people who can read a map and provide a 6 figure OS map reference will do, the very vast majority of people cannot.

 

[fireftrm]

For me it's not a case of "you can't" when actually the question should be "why would you want to"? Tie-in to a closed proprietary algorithm is never a good idea, especially when safety of life is concerned.

Because the very vast majority of people wouldn't have a map, or even if they did (or an app with one on like OSMaps) be unable to read it correctly. Believe me, having many times been part of emergency response to serious incidents to locations given by the caller using 999 from a mobile phone they are more often than not nowhere near the actual location. Had they used what3words the response would have been more accurate, in some cases also much quicker as a result

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

I can see the problem with providing a grid reference, in that not only is it quite long and not exactly clear what information you are to provide - I would say that someone who doesn’t fully understand it would they actually know to provide the two letters as well as the 6 digits?.

A 6 digit grid reference only provides you with detail down to a square 100m by 100m

In my experience if you're in a remote area you don't generally need anything more accurate than a six figure reference to navigate anyway. You're not expecting the reference to drop you right on the target, but generally it's visible or easy to figure out where they are. People estimating their position on a map might even be a digit out, but you'll still find them soon enough. If you have GPS though it's easy enough to give an 8 figure reference, which is as accurate as you'd ever need.

Most of the time a phone's GPS isn't even accurate enough to precisely track a 3x3 square, usually GPS accuracy is within a 5-10m radius. So a W3W square is a little too small.

 

[apk55]

I recall an amusing incident in my local walking club where somebody used an app to find nearest postcode to a car park for those with sat navs. The car park in question was on an open moorland section of road with no buildings anywhere near by on the Oldham Holmfirth road. What this application did was pick up the postcode of a remote farmhouse that was only accessible by dirt track road from Marsden and the only way though was a mountain footpath or a very long drive around.

 

[najaB]

Had they used what3words the response would have been more accurate, in some cases also much quicker as a result

As I noted above, I have no problem whatsoever with the concept behind W3W. My issue is that a) it's proprietary; b) there's clearly a profit motive (which they are keeping hidden); and c) they are using fear to try and get people tied in to their system.

If they made the algorithm and database public then I would have no issue with them whatsoever - however, see (a) and (b) above for why this won't happen.