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How to travel cheap at peak times on the WCML

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nedchester

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Seeing as Virgin have now put restrictions on the Shotton to London ticket (previously valid any train) apparently because people from Chester (which had restrictions) were buying them had me thinking.

A Gretna to London is valid any train at £87.20. Now you could buy a Gretna to London at Manchester Piccadilly and travel on the 0705 to London. Saves paying for a £230 ordinary return

Now someone will say that you cannot break your journey on the outward portion of a saver. But this is not breaking your journey it's starting short (which is not against the ticket rules!!!)

Discuss!
 
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me123

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A break on the outward portion is permitted so long as there is no onward connection on the day of the ticket. If claim that you got to Manchester on the late evening train from Glasgow by transferring at Carlisle, then your ticket would be valid providing it is dated the day beforehand. In this case, you'd buy the ticket the day or a few days beforehand and can make your reservations at the same time. That way, you would be breaking the journey which is perfectly allowed in these circumstances.

However, contrary to your advice, travelling short is in fact banned. You can be removed from the train or forced to pay the difference if you are caught. So I'd advise purchasing the Gretna-London ticket in advance is the best option. Then, you'd probably be as well buying an Advance ticket anyway which, if they are available, defeats the point as they will be cheaper.
 

nedchester

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But See:
a) From NFM 99 Term for savers

A break of journey on a Single ticket or on the outward
portion of a Return ticket is permitted only to get to
station services and to change trains at an intermediate
station. If there is no reasonable onward connection the
same day, the journey may be broken overnight and
continued the next morning before 1200.A break of journey on a Single
ticket or on the outward
portion of a Return ticket is permitted only to get to
station services and to change trains at an intermediate
station. If there is no reasonable onward connection the
same day, the journey may be broken overnight and
continued the next morning before 1200.

There is no mention of starting or ending a journey at a intermediate
station - a break of journey can only occur after the journey has
started so does not apply to starting a journey at an intermediate
station.

For further evidence NFM 99 terms for advance tickets include

Customers may not start, break and resume, or end their
journey at any intermediate station except to change
to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or
other valid travel itinerary.

AS can be seen this expressly forbids starting or ending the journey
at an intermediate station which the saver conditions do not.

Finally the NRCOC states
16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in
the case of a
return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you
hold is valid for
the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either
direction in
the case of a return ticket) before the destination shown on the
ticket. However,
these rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break
of journey is
prohibited, in which case the relevant Train Companies will make this
clear in their
notices and other publications.

For the purposes of this Condition and Condition 11, you will be
treated
as breaking your journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail
Service Company’s
stations after you start your journey other than:
(i) to join a train at another station, or
(ii) to stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably
complete your journey within one day, or
(iii) to follow any instructions given by a member of a Train
Company’s staff.

THis gives you the right to start and end your journey at an
intermediate station unless it is made clear that you can not.
Also a break of journey is defined as leaving a station AFTER you
start your journey
 

me123

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I'm using this website as a source: http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/travel/cheap-train-tickets. Go down to "Trick 4". Not the most reliable resource, I'll admit, but AFAIK it is true.

And I'm sure that it has been mentioned on here in the past: when travelling short you are lliable to pay the additional charge. For example, if caught VT could force you to pay the difference between the Manchester-London walk-up fare and the Gretna-London Saver fare (ie, a whopping £142.80).

It is clear that you would/could not have travelled on the train from Gretna (the ticekt has a one-day only validity. (I'm sure we can agree on that much!). So, combining the "break of journey" rule that you mentioned in your above post, it would only be valid if the ticket was dated the day before of the T&Cs of the ticket.

Also, according to NRCoC paragraph 16:

You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a
return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for
the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in
the case of a return ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. However,
these rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is
prohibited, in which case the relevant Train Companies will make this clear in their
notices and other publications.
If you start, break and resume, or end your journey at an intermediate station
when you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This
excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold
and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that
would have entitled you to start, break and resume, or end your journey at that
station on the service(s) you have used.

Basically, travelling short is allowed on open tickets. However, on a saver ticket a break of journey is prohibited under normal circumstances which means that travelling short on Savers such as this one is also prohibited as described above.

It's a minefield, isn't it!
 

william

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Can you not lie and see youve been on the train from Carlisle...you must have missed me....
 

me123

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Carlisle-London trains don't go through Manchester, unfortunately, so they would definately know you're lying :D But, in that case, as long as you get through the barriers that could work. Not entirely legal, but certainly not hard to get away with.
 

nedchester

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The only condition that savers have that No Break of journey is allowed. Starting short and finishing short is not the same.

There was a case a few years ago of a season ticket that was more expensive for a shorter distance than one a few stops further. People were buying the cheaper longer distance ticket and the railway tried to charge people for doing this and it went to court. the passengers won.

The Gretna situation is just the same but in reverse (starting short rather than finishing short)
 

me123

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You think you're right, I think I'm right. Best bet here IMO is to wait until someone else comes along and breaks this argument. Only thing I will say is that season tickets and savers are completely different.
 

nedchester

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I agree that Seasons may be different from Savers.

I think the problem here is that the conditions for Savers are not absolutely clear. If something like this went to court then the 'customer' would win on the basis that there was some ambiguity and usually in such cases it is for the law to fall on the side of the customer.

Another case of such ambiguity was someone about 5 years ago on a London to Retford Saver and and a North East Rover valid from Retford. The passenger was on a non stop journey from London to York and the GNER inspector tried to ching up the passenger. The passenger argued that the Rover was a 'season ticket' and it went to court. GNER lost the case and immediately Newsrail Express came up with a statement to say that Rovers were to be treated as season tickets. The Conditions of Carriage have also been amended to this effect as well.

Maybe someone ought to try a Gretna Saver from Manchester. I for one (like many others) have used a Shotton to London Saver from Chester in the past. Even Virgin themselves have described this as a 'loophole' not a breaking of conditions!
 

adambro

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Another case of such ambiguity was someone about 5 years ago on a London to Retford Saver and and a North East Rover valid from Retford. The passenger was on a non stop journey from London to York and the GNER inspector tried to ching up the passenger. The passenger argued that the Rover was a 'season ticket' and it went to court. GNER lost the case and immediately Newsrail Express came up with a statement to say that Rovers were to be treated as season tickets. The Conditions of Carriage have also been amended to this effect as well.

I've done similar myself with no problems which hopefully means that GNER learnt their lesson. I've travelled from Darlington to Peterborough using an NE rover and a CDR between Retford and Pete which I purchased at Doncaster where I needed to change off a Virgin service. I can't recall whether or not I was asked to show my rover to explain how I was going to get to Retford but this has happened once when I travelled up to Edinburgh with an NE rover and a CDR from Berwick. Had no problems either time upon showing my ticket to the guard despite the services not stopping at Retford or Berwick.
 

me123

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john @ home on another thread said:
Use of this ticket involves starting your journey at an intermediate station. Although break of journey at an intermediate station is not allowed on the outward part of a saver return, it has been confidently asserted on groups such as this that starting your journey at one is allowed.

I do apologise, nedchester, it appears I am wrong in this case! I believe someone mentioned earlier that this is not true, however it does appear to be so, therefore I may be thinking of another ticket...

Anyhoo, whilst the ticket is technically valid, there are still some questions:

1) Would they sell it to you as a walk-up ticket?
2) Would they accept it, considering no trains CAR-EUS pass through Manchester? (Even thought it is a legitimate route on the routeing guide)
3) Would they wrongly then claim that it is not valid and either throw you off or charge you £143?!?

The only way to test this in practice is to write to them (and probably be told it's not valid whatever happens) or chance your arm and risk a potential £143 fine which may or may not be refunded at a later date when/if they realise they're wrong.

Rather you than me :)
 

Polarbear

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Whilst the saver restrictions from North Wales have been tightened, they aren't exactly draconian.

Savers from Shotton & the coast are valid on the 06.50 ex Holyhead, (08.28 from Chester), and per Virgin's publicity, also valid as from 07.39 from Shotton. You can still make a decent day of it in London.

To North Wales, there are no restrictions for the return part of a Saver from London.

Personally, (as one living in Chester who's done the saver from Wales trick on more than one occasion), I can live with that.
 

Max

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1) Would they sell it to you as a walk-up ticket?
2) Would they accept it, considering no trains CAR-EUS pass through Manchester? (Even thought it is a legitimate route on the routeing guide)
3) Would they wrongly then claim that it is not valid and either throw you off or charge you £143?!?

1. I'm sure ATOC rules state that all ticket offices HAVE to sell the ticket requested. Validity is determined on the train or barrier etc. I'm sure this is the case.

2. How could they refuse if it's ok by the routeing guide?

3. Argue your case and ask them to look it up.
 

me123

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1. I'm sure ATOC rules state that all ticket offices HAVE to sell the ticket requested. Validity is determined on the train or barrier etc. I'm sure this is the case.

I know, but it is a bit odd for a person in Manchester to buy a ticket for travel from Gretna on that day.

2. How could they refuse if it's ok by the routeing guide?

Same reason that some refuse Carlisle-Newcastle tickets via Leeds; they are not aware that it is possible/refuse to accept it/find it strange that you would choose that route when a CAR-EUS service runs pretty frequently. It's certainly not the most common routeing for Gretna-London passengers.

3. Argue your case and ask them to look it up.

There are people out there who I'm sure won't accept it. You should get your money back if they do fine you; agreed.

It's not the validity of the ticket I'm questioning any more, it's the practicalities of it in use. If I were a VWC conductor on a Manchester service and a passenger handed me their GAE-EUS SVR it would be hard for me to accept and I'm sure that a few guards will question the validity. It will be a lot of hastle, I'm sure, to use this ticket regularly.
 

Ben

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I thought some weekend VWC services (during engineering works) went something like Crewe - Manchester - Bolton - Preston?
 

nedchester

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I was told by a friend who works in the Chester booking office that they were told to refuse to issue Shotton to London tickets at Chester on the morning of travel. This is surely illegal and against impartial retailing?
 

Tom C

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was told by a friend who works in the Chester booking office that they were told to refuse to issue Shotton to London tickets at Chester on the morning of travel. This is surely illegal and against impartial retailing?

When I was trained in the booking office (a VERY long time ago) I was told that you should sell any ticket you are asked for and that it was down to the people on the train to make sure its valid and I believe that is the status to this day so for a booking office to refuse to sell a certain ticket is as you say against impartial retailing.
 

hairyhandedfool

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TICKET OFFICES

Ticket offices must sell the cheapest through ticket valid for your journey, to the best of their knowledge, unless you request a specific ticket.

Ticket offices can refuse to sell you a ticket (or tickets) which is not valid for your journey, if they believe you will use it when it is not valid.

Ticket offices that do sell you a ticket that is not valid must inform you of when or why it is not valid and stamp it 'validity advised' or similar.

Ticket offices must tell you when or if the ticket is not valid.

TICKETS

Tickets now carry the date, time and location of issue. The guards can see where you bought your ticket and can judge that you bought, for example, your Gretna-London ticket from Piccadilly 10mins before you boarded the train there.

I have not checked yet, but I would imagine the Gretna-London ticket, when used as such, would be valid via Manchester. The route being Gretna-Preston-Manchester-London. However, you could only change trains at Preston and/or Manchester (or anywhere else along the route) and use station facilities but not actually break your journey, unless you were unable to complete your journey on the day before.

There was mention earlier of the use of two tickets on some journeys, for this purpose I add:

Where two or more tickets are used for a through journey, the tickets must, have a common changeover point where the train used stops, be zonal tickets, or be one season ticket (which for these purpose do not include tickets issued by or on behalf of local authorities) and one not. Just because a guard fails to notice this, it does not make it valid.

For example:

If you had a season ticket from London to Milton Keynes, a return from Milton Keynes to Carlisle, and a return from Carlisle to Glasgow, you could board a direct service to Glasgow provided it stopped at Carlisle. It would not need to stop at Milton Keynes as the first ticket is a season and the second is not.

If the Milton Keynes to Carlisle ticket was a season ticket you could take the direct train provided it stopped at Milton Keynes, as the first and second tickets are season tickets. It would not have to stop at Carlisle as the third ticket is not a season.

If the first and third tickets were Season tickets but the Milton Keynes to Carlisle ticket was not, the train would not have to stop at either changeover point.
 

paul1609

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I was told by a friend who works in the Chester booking office that they were told to refuse to issue Shotton to London tickets at Chester on the morning of travel. This is surely illegal and against impartial retailing?

I believe that TOCs are only obliged under their contracts to sell tickets from that station although many will sell you tickets from other stations. The impartial retailling would then only apply to tickets from Chester.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Impartial Retailling is the obligation to offer you the cheapest valid through ticket for the journey you are making, regardless when and where you are travelling, and to sell you it if you want it.

This means that if you tell the clerk at York, on a Saturday, that you are traveling from Manchester to London at 0700 on Monday, (s)he is obliged to offer you the SOR/S ticket from Manchester to London or the cheapest Advance fare that is available, nothing else.
 

nedchester

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Impartial Retailling is the obligation to offer you the cheapest valid through ticket for the journey you are making, regardless when and where you are travelling, and to sell you it if you want it.

This means that if you tell the clerk at York, on a Saturday, that you are traveling from Manchester to London at 0700 on Monday, (s)he is obliged to offer you the SOR/S ticket from Manchester to London or the cheapest Advance fare that is available, nothing else.

But if you asked the same clerk specifically for a Gretna to London then he should issue you with it. You don't have to tell the clerk why.
 

yorkie

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I was told by a friend who works in the Chester booking office that they were told to refuse to issue Shotton to London tickets at Chester on the morning of travel. This is surely illegal and against impartial retailing?
I believe it is against ATOC's rules. However many ticket offices break impartial ticketing rules on a regular basis :(

I find on-train staff to be far more professional and customer-focussed, on average, than many ticket office/barrier staff in this respect. Of course there are always exceptions, but they are few and far between in my experience.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
nedchester - I agree with your interpretation, BUT see this

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=18454&page=53

"ticketcollector" (an RPI on the Peterborough-London FCC services) caught someone "stopping short" using an outward saver and they were prosecuted and found guilty.

That doesn't necessarily mean stopping short counts as a break though because:

1) We don't know the details of the case
2) The person who was 'caught' may not have had a good defence lawyer
3) If an RPI says something is not valid then BTP, courts, etc are likely to believe them even if they are wrong, I think, unless the accused has a good defence
4) We all know how confusing the rules are and the prosecution side would know them inside out and, we all know the rules often conflict and are ambiguous but they would carefully pick and choose their wording to make it sound like they are right, you can guarantee it.
 

jopsuk

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Of course, if the world was in anyway sane, this situation wouldn't arise...
 

djw1981

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The fact is that to many, a ticket office job is just an office job - no need for any rail specific knowledge or training, whereas on train staff normally have some knowledge of the workings of the railway.
 

yorkie

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The fact is that to many, a ticket office job is just an office job - no need for any rail specific knowledge or training, whereas on train staff normally have some knowledge of the workings of the railway.
It's not just that. Some of the ticket office staff are just downright rude jobsworths. Yeah you get a few on-train staff like that but they are very few and far between in my experience.

Aberdeen seems particularly bad for jobsworthyness. I didn't feel treated like a 'customer' there. Firstly, we were told at Dundee that Aberdeen would get a taxi for us due to the train being late and missing the last train onward. They refused and said we would need to pay ourselves. We asked about buses and we were sent to a long distance coach station who then sent us to the main bus stops but the last bus had gone anyway.l I also found that they had barriers that were unmanned, which I thought was illegal? You even need to go through barriers just to change platforms! The barrier staff force you to put your ticket through even when carrying loads of stuff and having tickets/reservations etc stapled together.

And in the ticket office, they initially wanted to refuse an excess fare saying " you shouldn't do that at a station you should do it on the train" (Yeah right, as if NXEC would agree to that!), eventually he relented and then made snide comments about we only saved a couple of quid "Didn't save much there" he said. They also had TV screens that made a painful high pitched noise. The whole place just seemed very unprofessional and unwelcoming. Oh yeah, and when I asked about weekend first they went on about how expensive NXEC were and that we should do that on the train, yet when we got on the train the trolley guy said it was "full". Needless to say when we sat down anyway the guard was fine with it and the journey on NXEC was very pleasant. If I was NXEC I'd insist FSR do not barrier their trains and would handle the customers themselves, but it's their choice....

No wonder Aberdeen got in the papers for shoddy treatment of customers.
 

Jord

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It's not just that. Some of the ticket office staff are just downright rude jobsworths. Yeah you get a few on-train staff like that but they are very few and far between in my experience.

Aberdeen seems particularly bad for jobsworthyness. I didn't feel treated like a 'customer' there. Firstly, we were told at Dundee that Aberdeen would get a taxi for us due to the train being late and missing the last train onward. They refused and said we would need to pay ourselves. We asked about buses and we were sent to a long distance coach station who then sent us to the main bus stops but the last bus had gone anyway.l I also found that they had barriers that were unmanned, which I thought was illegal? You even need to go through barriers just to change platforms! The barrier staff force you to put your ticket through even when carrying loads of stuff and having tickets/reservations etc stapled together.

And in the ticket office, they initially wanted to refuse an excess fare saying " you shouldn't do that at a station you should do it on the train" (Yeah right, as if NXEC would agree to that!), eventually he relented and then made snide comments about we only saved a couple of quid "Didn't save much there" he said. They also had TV screens that made a painful high pitched noise. The whole place just seemed very unprofessional and unwelcoming. Oh yeah, and when I asked about weekend first they went on about how expensive NXEC were and that we should do that on the train, yet when we got on the train the trolley guy said it was "full". Needless to say when we sat down anyway the guard was fine with it and the journey on NXEC was very pleasant. If I was NXEC I'd insist FSR do not barrier their trains and would handle the customers themselves, but it's their choice....

No wonder Aberdeen got in the papers for shoddy treatment of customers.

Now someone understands what I have to live with, my 'local' station being Aberdeen :roll:

I hate it.

You have to go through barriers from platforms 1 - 6 to get to 7, then you still have to go through barriers, also, you go through the barriers to get to platforms 1 - 6, the platform ends are still shut off with them elasticated pole thingys.

Every FSR dispatcher at Aberdeen station has seen me at some point and out of the whole lot, there is only 2 male workers that understand me and what I do and there fine towards me everytime they see me...

Yet most EWS drivers are completely different and fine towards me when they come in off the Sleeper and are not shy to say "hello Jordan, how you doin'?"

Just FSR Aberdeen based workers just get me so angry! <(
 

yorkie

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Let's hope they get a good telling off after the bad publicity they caused with that blind man.

They could transfer to a job working at a prison, they'd do a good job of that as the way they treat customers is roughly at the level that prisoners should be treated I'd say.
 

Jord

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Let's hope they get a good telling off after the bad publicity they caused with that blind man.

They could transfer to a job working at a prison, they'd do a good job of that as the way they treat customers is roughly at the level that prisoners should be treated I'd say.

Totally agreed!
 
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