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How train wheels work - a good explanation?

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me123

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Just watched a really good video on YouTube, and I wasn't expecting it to come onto railways but it seemed to give quite an elegant explanation of how a train's wheels help it to turn a corner without actually turning. I have to say it's something I haven't really thought of before.

[youtube]Ku8BOBwD4hc[/youtube]

Railway explanation starts at about 5 minutes in.

Seems like a good explanation to me, but I was wondering if any forum members could comment on how accurate and comprehensive it is?
 
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100andthirty

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A very clear explanation and exactly how rail wheels fixed on axles work. The twin coffee cup is often used to demonstrate the principle
 

D365

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Could have done with this being posted last week, I had this question asked of me in a job interview :D
 

najaB

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Now we just need a good video that explains hunting and cyclic top.
 

1018509

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Now when I was a teenager either Raymond Baxter or the gentleman called Burke had a programme on TV and demonstrated with a camera and marks on a fixed axle how on wheel of the axle rotated one way and the other wheel appeared to rotate in the opposite direction when the axle went round a tight curve.

I can remember no more than this but suspect that the wheels may have had very steep flanges.

Any one remember this.
 

NickBucks

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Ah yes. Tomorrow's World. Raymond Baxter, James Burke. The good old days of TV before constant soaps. Well worth the licence fee in those days.
 

talltim

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The builders of the BART system could have done with knowing it too.
 

snowball

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Have train wheels been conical since 1830 or is it a later invention?
 

RSimons

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Snowball - my understanding is that it appeared around the 1840s but the originator is not known.

I made a crude demonstration (using two Dixie cups) for our local rail museum in Manitoba, Canada but a visitor claimed that that was not used on Canadian railways. I e-mailed CN and two Canadian rolling stock makers for clarification. The replies from the manufacturers indicated they had never heard of the concept but the CN person sent a detailed reply confirming that in fact they do use coned wheels. We now have a better model, using two medicine cups filled with cement, that children especially find fascinating.
 

Flying Phil

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Now we just need a good video that explains hunting and cyclic top.

Way back in the late 60's I went on an induction course and visited BREL, at Derby? There was a model carriage bogie which was being used to investigate "hunting" and the best profile was not a true cone but a "worn wheel profile" so we were told.
 

edwin_m

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Way back in the late 60's I went on an induction course and visited BREL, at Derby? There was a model carriage bogie which was being used to investigate "hunting" and the best profile was not a true cone but a "worn wheel profile" so we were told.

Possibly BR Research not BREL, as they were doing a lot of work on this about that time which is now incorporated in most later vehicle designs.

I think the reason for turning new wheels to a "worn" profile is that as they wear in service the profile doesn't change much. So the suspension only has to cope with one wheel profile, rather than having to deliver a smooth ride with "new", "fully worn" and everything in between.

Hunting is when the centreing of the wheel over-corrects for lateral displacements so the wheel overshoots to the other side and this results in lateral oscillation. For a particular set of circumstances there is always a critical speed above which it will occur - I remember travelling across Spain in a couchette in the 90s when I couldn't get any sleep because the oscillation would start like clockwork soon after starting from every station stop.

One solution is to provide dampers (shock absorbers) that restrict the rotation of the bogie, although this may increase wear on curves as the bogie is less able to align itself with the rails. The difference was very noticeable on the WCML between the Mk3s fitted with dampers and the Mk2s that weren't. I've also experienced hunting on a Karlsruhe tram-train at speed on the railway section, where I suspect damping of bogie rotation isn't possible as it would restrict the turning of the bogies into tight corners on the street.
 

furnessvale

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Possibly BR Research not BREL, as they were doing a lot of work on this about that time which is now incorporated in most later vehicle designs.

I think the reason for turning new wheels to a "worn" profile is that as they wear in service the profile doesn't change much. So the suspension only has to cope with one wheel profile, rather than having to deliver a smooth ride with "new", "fully worn" and everything in between.

An unintended consequence of the worn wheel profile was the fact that it immediately initiated rail side cut at an angle of 27 degrees which is the angle at which rails (at that time) had to be changed to avoid flanges climbing over the rail.

As a worn wheel profile is still used today I can only assume that either the profile was modified or the sidecut angle was deemed acceptable.
 

edwin_m

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And I believe the ride benefit of the worn wheel profile was negated by the unilateral decision of the civils to reduce the gauge by 3mm (later reversed but not before quite a lot of new track had been laid).

Interface problems aren't just a post-privatisation thing.
 
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