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How would the Underground look today if these stations closed?

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BayPaul

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Surely if Covent Garden was exit only through lifts, you could allow entrance form the stairs (possibly with warnings still), as going down is much easier?
Covent Garden struggles to cope with loads on a normal day. Adding in people taking one look at the stairs and turning around, or coming in to the station and trying to use the lifts just isn’t going to work. It’s such a short walk to Leicester Square anyway, it’s without doubt the best solution.
 
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rebmcr

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193 at CG is obviously a lot but almost everyone should manage 78 or 83 steps?

It's not about whether they can manage, it's about whether they can manage quickly enough. If the average rate of stair climbers is below the average rate of platform alighters, overcrowding becomes inevitable in tunnels with no other way out.
 

Mikey C

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It's not about whether they can manage, it's about whether they can manage quickly enough. If the average rate of stair climbers is below the average rate of platform alighters, overcrowding becomes inevitable in tunnels with no other way out.
Good point

The stairs are usually quick as only the super fit use them, but when a more "mixed" group of people used them and don't stick to one side, they become very slow and congested
 

Camden

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Imagine how busy Leicester Square would be with tourists if Covent Garden had closed...
It's hard to say. If various close together intermediate stations closed, arguably London would promote more walking. A lot of unnecessary tube journeys do occur, especially by tourists.

As by and large users of the tube will pay via Oyster and hit capping, or travelcard, the only "cost" of closing stations is some people losing some convenience. Money saved from rationalising the network could go to better stations that remain.
 

BayPaul

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Good point

The stairs are usually quick as only the super fit use them, but when a more "mixed" group of people used them and don't stick to one side, they become very slow and congested
I suspect that the risk of accidents also goes up rapidly to unacceptable as long flights of stairs become overcrowded, especially for spiral staircases with people trying to overtake on the narrow inside steps. If someone falls over it could quickly lead to a blockage and crushing as people don't realise what the hold-up is.
 

Scotrail12

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It's hard to say. If various close together intermediate stations closed, arguably London would promote more walking. A lot of unnecessary tube journeys do occur, especially by tourists.

As by and large users of the tube will pay via Oyster and hit capping, or travelcard, the only "cost" of closing stations is some people losing some convenience. Money saved from rationalising the network could go to better stations that remain.

Following on from that, I wonder if TfL would ever consider closing any stations today?
 

Camden

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Wasn't it covent garden that had the staircase crushing incident during WWII?
No it was Bethnal Green.
 

Mikey C

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I suspect that the risk of accidents also goes up rapidly to unacceptable as long flights of stairs become overcrowded, especially for spiral staircases with people trying to overtake on the narrow inside steps. If someone falls over it could quickly lead to a blockage and crushing as people don't realise what the hold-up is.
I hate having to use the spiral staircases if they're being used "2 ways", as the inside steps are ridiculously narrow
 

Camden

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If it wasn't for the electrified railway tracks at the bottom, I've always thought that the inside portion would be ideal for a slippery slip.
 

An_Engineer

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Good point

The stairs are usually quick as only the super fit use them, but when a more "mixed" group of people used them and don't stick to one side, they become very slow and congested

As a semi example of this: last year at Notting Hill Gate they closed the down escalator between district line platforms and central line for repairs, diverting all passengers down the central stairs. This made a normally short queue for the escalator to become a queue that stretched all the way to the base of the previous down escalator (from street level) and also stretched into the district line passenger transfer tunnel at peak times. Considering that these were majority commuters, who (on the whole) would be more accustomed to walking down stairs at speed, it would be worse with mixed casual tourists and visitors.
 

BayPaul

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Following on from that, I wonder if TfL would ever consider closing any stations today?
I'd say they would find it easier to do than on the national network and would probably be more likely to as well. As noted above, Mornington Crescent was at risk fairly recently. TfL have a few advantages in this respect over the national network. Firstly, being all in house, and run by the local authority, there would be a much more coordinated approach, and a closure would be looked at as a whole, rather than focusing on a narrow area. Secondly, as TfL control their own budget, they are more likely to want to avoid insane costs for repairs at a lightly used station, and thirdly, with a very dense network they would find it easier to argue that passengers have an alternative.
Still unlikely IMO, but not impossible.
 

Tetchytyke

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Good point

The stairs are usually quick as only the super fit use them, but when a more "mixed" group of people used them and don't stick to one side, they become very slow and congested

It was very obvious at Euston when the escalators were being refurbished a few years ago, closing the down escalator and sending people down a short flight of spiral stairs caused the station to become so overcrowded it had to be shut for entry at certain times.

Following on from that, I wonder if TfL would ever consider closing any stations today?

The low-hanging fruit like Aldwych and Epping-Ongar went a long time ago, and I'm surprised that Woodford-Hainault survived. But now I can't see it, even the quieter zone 1 stations are useful (and would cost a lot to maintain even if closed) and further out the station costs are marginal anyway. Even stations like Edgware Road (Bakerloo) and Mornington Crescent are busy enough to keep, although the latter is mostly useful as it allows Camden Town to be exit-only on Sundays.
 

Scotrail12

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The low-hanging fruit like Aldwych and Epping-Ongar went a long time ago, and I'm surprised that Woodford-Hainault survived. But now I can't see it, even the quieter zone 1 stations are useful (and would cost a lot to maintain even if closed) and further out the station costs are marginal anyway. Even stations like Edgware Road (Bakerloo) and Mornington Crescent are busy enough to keep, although the latter is mostly useful as it allows Camden Town to be exit-only on Sundays.

Edgware Road Bakerloo always seemed really quiet to me any time I've been there. I don't really get it's purpose, and it's had to be closed a few times for lift replacement. Seems like one they could have thrown in the towel with years ago.

Same with Lambeth North & Regent's Park - who really uses them?
 
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AlbertBeale

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Edgware Road Bakerloo always seemed really quiet to me any time I've been there. I don't really get it's purpose, and it's had to be closed a few times for lift replacement. Seems like one they could have thrown in the towel with years ago.

Same with Lambeth North & Regent's Park - who really uses them?

Lambeth North gets a bit of commuter traffic; and, especially, lots of tourists - both inbound for the IWM (at weekends particularly) and (more importantly) visitors (including from overseas) who're staying at hotels in the area. It's a bit like Russell Square in that it seems to those who don't know the area to be a bit in the middle of nowhere, slightly away from main centres of activity, not far from other stations, and with no interchange or anything to make it more useful - yet plenty of people staying in the area use it. In fact, Lambeth North (especially because it's got a very small entrance) was - in non-COVID times - a good place to avoid in the morning just after the rush hour: it was sometimes crowded with groups of foreign tourists (either starting a day out in London, or with bags, off to the airport or whatever) trying to figure out how to use the ticket machines. Since the ticket office there closed, I've seen locals who need to get or charge up a ticket before travelling give up on account of the confused tourists taking forever, and walk on to Waterloo to start their journey. So, it seems to me to be busy at times - for its above-ground size at least. Admittedly, its figures are probably low for quite a central station - and in the days when less-used stations were closed on Boxing Day and Bank Holidays, Lambeth North was one that closed.

As for Regents Park - well, at weekends you often see people using it to get to ... um ... Regents Park. (As I do sometimes if I'm not on my bike.) I expect the demographic in the buildings around it is - these days - mostly of people who don't travel by tube! (Maybe that was different a century ago.) At peak times, if you're going to or from somewhere between there and Oxford Circus, and using the Bakerloo, you'd be well-advised to use Regents Park, even if your origin/destination was a bit closer to Oxford Circus, to avoid the excessive crush at the latter.
 
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Russell Square has 175 steps. As an ex regular who has attempted it on occasion, it's not for the faint hearted.The 3 Lifts at Russell Square were replaced a few years back and one at a time was done to keep it open demonstrating how busy it is. Going even further back when the ticket hall was modernised they even blocked off a street and had a portakabin for the ticket office (remember those) if any stations needed converting to escalators its this and Covent Garden - obviously wasn't ever possible space wise or financially.

I don't believe Russell.Square was ever proposed for closure though some may know different.
 
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Mojo

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Mornington Crescent are busy enough to keep, although the latter is mostly useful as it allows Camden Town to be exit-only on Sundays.
FWIW, whilst you are right about Mornington Crescent being very useful in helping reduce crowding at Camden Town, Camden Town station has not been exit only on Sunday afternoons since January last year (2019).
 

Tetchytyke

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FWIW, whilst you are right about Mornington Crescent being very useful in helping reduce crowding at Camden Town, Camden Town station has not been exit only on Sunday afternoons since January last year (2019).

I hadn't clocked that change, I'm surprised. Has anything (pre-Covid!) changed to make it safe enough to allow entry?
 

Mikey C

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At weekends you have to use the spiral staircase at Camden to access the platforms. Not a particularly pleasant experience with the large crowds of visitors pre Covid
 

Mojo

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I hadn't clocked that change, I'm surprised. Has anything (pre-Covid!) changed to make it safe enough to allow entry?
Nothing really. I wonder if it’s just a case of the fact the station was always exit only Sunday afternoons and nobody ever asked why that was the case.

There are the requirements for additional staff to be on duty, as well as mentioned above a one way system with the spiral stairs used for downward customers.
 

Tetchytyke

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I wonder if it’s just a case of the fact the station was always exit only Sunday afternoons and nobody ever asked why that was the case.

Maybe, it used to be spiral stairs only at other times during the weekend, maybe they just thought Sunday afternoon wasn't really any busier.
 

Dr_Paul

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Same with Lambeth North & Regent's Park - who really uses them?

I used to work opposite Lambeth North station in the Central Office of Information, and there was usually a fair number of people at rush hours using the station. However, the COI has now closed down, and the MI6 spooks at Century House (you could always tell them as they were about the only folk in the area wearing suits, and they'd walk with a determined stride to their and from their workplace, no hanging about like other folk) are now at Vauxhall, so there won't be so much commuter traffic there now. On the other hand, it serves quite a big residential area and the station is useful for those living locally who want to use the Underground.
 

Ianigsy

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Following on from that, I wonder if TfL would ever consider closing any stations today?

The thing is, as Covent Garden and Camden Town show, it isn't always easy to anticipate where the next upcoming district or major development is going to be.

Tourists will often take illogical routes using public transport (I did it myself in Montreal a couple of years back) because they might have a tube map but not a street map, or feel more confident on the tube than on buses, particularly if their language isn't too good. In Zone 1 it probably makes sense to have some quieter stations in areas with lots of hotels to spread the lid around - the Central Line west of Marble Arch comes to mind.

To go back to the original question, I think the Great Northern, Piccadilly & Brompton's plan was to have Paris/New York style distances of a few blocks between stations down Piccadilly and into Kensington, but the number of stops was a deterrent to the well heeled residents who would otherwise take a cab.
 

Scotrail12

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Given the comments about spiral staircases, I wonder how on earth people would manage in an emergency at Hampstead, Russell Square, Covent Garden. It's one thing for steps to be available but it's another thing for everyone to use them in a mad rush, especially those who are unfit.
 

Alfonso

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Lambeth North gets a bit of commuter traffic; and, especially, lots of tourists - both inbound for the IWM (at weekends particularly) and (more importantly) visitors (including from overseas) who're staying at hotels in the area. It's a bit like Russell Square in that it seems to those who don't know the area to be a bit in the middle of nowhere, slightly away from main centres of activity, not far from other stations, and with no interchange or anything to make it more useful - yet plenty of people staying in the area use it. In fact, Lambeth North (especially because it's got a very small entrance) was - in non-COVID times - a good place to avoid in the morning just after the rush hour: it was sometimes crowded with groups of foreign tourists (either starting a day out in London, or with bags, off to the airport or whatever) trying to figure out how to use the ticket machines. Since the ticket office there closed, I've seen locals who need to get or charge up a ticket before travelling give up on account of the confused tourists taking forever, and walk on to Waterloo to start their journey. So, it seems to me to be busy at times - for its above-ground size at least. Admittedly, its figures are probably low for quite a central station - and in the days when less-used stations were closed on Boxing Day and Bank Holidays, Lambeth North was one that closed.

As for Regents Park - well, at weekends you often see people using it to get to ... um ... Regents Park. (As I do sometimes if I'm not on my bike.) I expect the demographic in the buildings around it is - these days - mostly of people who don't travel by tube! (Maybe that was different a century ago.) At peak times, if you're going to or from somewhere between there and Oxford Circus, and using the Bakerloo, you'd be well-advised to use Regents Park, even if your origin/destination was a bit closer to Oxford Circus, to avoid the excessive crush at the latter.
I used to travel to Great Portland Street often, as it was listed as the nearest station to the Energy Institute. Then one day I noticed Regents park station was about six metres away, and far more convenient.
 

AlbertBeale

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I used to travel to Great Portland Street often, as it was listed as the nearest station to the Energy Institute. Then one day I noticed Regents park station was about six metres away, and far more convenient.

Six? So has it moved since then?!
 

edwin_m

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No, it's exactly six metres away, not five, not seven, not a couple of hundred. Honest guv.
Being the Energy Institute it has lots of energy to spare. Perhaps it moved itself over to the tube station when nobody was looking just for the fun of it.
 

AlbertBeale

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Being the Energy Institute it has lots of energy to spare. Perhaps it moved itself over to the tube station when nobody was looking just for the fun of it.

I thought the EI was in New Cavendish St - a bit more than 6 metres from the station....
 

Alfonso

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I thought the EI was in New Cavendish St - a bit more than 6 metres from the station....
The six very exact metres in question are between the entrances to Great Portland Street and Regents Park underground stations. I either need to stop or report my own post for being O/T.
 
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