HS1 penalty fare today. Confused

[Mike395]

I believe SET Avantix stock has a PF warning on the back, but I've never received a separate one.

 

[IanXC]

There will be the exact same problem when Northern start enforcing the 'buy your ticket before boarding at staffed stations' rule, which I have been told is happening soon.

I've already seen many a 'discussion' on a Northern service where a passenger is being sold an undiscounted Anytime ticket.

 

[BrownE]

I believe (although could be wrong) that HS guards are PACE trained and can report a passenger for fare evasion if they wish as well as PF them

Some HS Managers are, others are not; it appears that this is additional training done after the other relevant TM-like training.

Here's a question, what is the point of having RPI's patrol a train if the OBMs are trained issuing penalty fares and the reporting of offences? Unless SET know the staff on HS1 are less inclinde to do so?

I most often see them (additional RPIs) on a non-HS1 part of the line, generally between MAR and AFK where where the Guard 'doesn't have time' to pass through the train between stations. To quote Gill O'Keefe (Revenue Protection Manager): 'Thanet is a hotspot' [for fare evasion].

 

[142094]

I've already seen many a 'discussion' on a Northern service where a passenger is being sold an undiscounted Anytime ticket.

Unless the guard is sh*t hot, usually the only thing to get refused is the use of a railcard onboard, when boarding at a staffed station or one that has a TVM. What Northern will start to clamp down on is the selling of say an off-peak return on board a train when there is a booking office open or TVM.

 

[bb21]

But the HS1, is different in respect this is used by mainly commuters and not people dodging fares as per the North Kent line.

This is stereotyping, is it not?

Like I said, for 2 years I have travelled on this with the express understanding from the OBM's that I can obtain a ticket if the station is busy. (the southEastern charter says in black and white on their webpage - 3 minutes busy times (peak), 5 minutes max (off peak) is the time you should wait to get a ticket from the counter).

This is only a guidance. It is a target that TOCs will aim to achieve on average. It does not give intending passengers a right to board a train without a ticket once he/she has waited this amount of time.

Unfortunately this is a grey area and there is no explicit threshold beyond which a passenger can board a service without a ticket.

A few of you seem to be under the impression that i'm try to evade payment.

People are not accusing you of fare evasion. It would seem that you made the incorrect assumptions from previous behaviour of the guards. I am inclined to agree that this seems very harsh however technically you have broken the Byelaws / Penalty Fare regulations by not purchasing your ticket before boarding so the Penalty Fare is correct.

It could be worse, you could be prosecuted if travelling with a certain other TOC.

For one, i'm a professional person, commuting to work and two, you can't dodge a fare on HS1 because of the OBMs walk up and down checking tickets. What I'm try to get across is, somewhere in the training / management structure miss information is being given, either by the OBM's and have been for 2 years, which I find confusing or the Revenue Inspectors work to a different set of rules.

From the information on here I gather that you made incorrect assumptions. However if you feel that you have been misled by SET guards in the past as you have never been warned about this, I suggest that you make a recommendation to SET in this regard.

HS1 (this is the high speed network, just for clarification, do not have "guards", they have On-Board-Managers.

Doesn't matter what fancy names some organisations like to come up with, they are still guards.

These guys are trained to an amazing level of customer service that if you have not used this train you will have not encountered before. They will help and advise on any query you could possibly have and as such when for the past 2 years have "advised" me and fellow passengers to seek them out if you haven't a ticket from your station. They can issue penalty fares, but rarely do as they try to be nice guys and understand that some situations are not all black and white. I will be having a discussion with the area manager of SouthEastern to point out the current staffing issues at Gravesend.

Trust me, HS1 guards are not really that special. There are millions of other railway staff who also offer wonderful customer service. It is heartening to hear that they use their discretion where appropriate though in your case it would seem that it caused some confusion.

I think it is very decent of you to raise your concerns with the area manager as that is certainly a constructive way forward.

Which Is why today I was confused that they are ALL giving the same wrong advice for so long? I just don't understand. I will get to the bottom of it though.

Others before me have already clarified the situation for you. It might seem harsh, unfortunately there is nothing to suggest that the Penalty Fare has been issued incorrectly.

Aren't they supposed to give a printed penalty fares warning when selling on board a penalty fares train?

I believe SET Avantix stock has a PF warning on the back, but I've never received a separate one.

I believe that SET guards do use RSP9299/PEN stock in their Avantix machines.

@OP. Please check the back of previous tickets you have bought onboard. There should be red Penalty Fare warning texts.

 

[b0b]

You sure 5% commission of ticket sales perhaps doesn't help them make up their mind either? RPI's also know that situations are not always black and white and despite what you or others may think, most of them are rational human beings doing a job for which they were employed for..

The RPI's also have the motivation to hand out PFs and I doubt that the argument "the train manager always sells me the ticket and never warns me about PFs" will disuade him from basically doing his job.

 

[transportphoto]

In my postings earlier I was not accusing you of intending to avoid payment, the complete opposite, however, had said Revenue Protection Inspector decided to caution you, under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act of 1984 ('You do not have to say anything but it may harm your defence if you fail to mention when questions something you may later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given as evidence' ) like a police officer would, you could then be put forward for prosecution - in what you say on here it is highly likely that you would admit to being in breach of byelaw 18 1) and 18 2). And you would be prosecuted through the courts.

Advised Action points:

• Pay the penalty fare
• In the future, always buy a ticket to cover your full immediate journey before travelling. Even if this means queing up at a ticket office, or buying a ticket from the ticket vending machine and getting it over distance excesssed while in London or on the train toward London.
  [*]Take this as a lesson learn't - as I say, this could have become alot worse for you.
  [*]By all means, take this further with SE, with regards to the misleading information being given to you by the OBMs, Guards, Train Managers (what ever you want to call them today) of staff in the past.
  

I have had a look, I can't find a PWS (Penalty Warning) applicable to SE's network (J250 ANY SE STATION to J666 PENALTY WARNING) however, as others say, it is likely to be printed on the reverse of tickets issued (RSP 2999/PEN stock). We even have these on rural pay trains here in Norfolk!

TP

 

[markbigears]

bb21, thank you for your contibution to my post. Reading beween the lines I take it you are a revenue Inspector? If so, can I ask you, do you ever deal in "grey" areas when dealing with customers without tickets? Sorry to say, but HS1 OBMsare poles apart from the "guards" on the North Kent Line. I used it for 20 years, so I think I can "stereotype". Thats just say, I've never sat next to a drug user on his way for a fix on HS1 or someone being sick next to me. And I strongly disagree with you about the OBMs, you may not think them special, but I've never come across customer service as good on any standard train.
I think it is very decent of you to raise your concerns with the area manager as that is certainly a constructive way forward.
I can't work out if you are being funny or "funny" with that comment.
I'm sorry, but I don't except "grey areas". If SET have differing rules for different staff and offering different information, then the company is to blame, not me. But now I know the score and will not board unless I have a ticket, All it would have taken from the Inspector was to actually hear what I had to say, think about it, and pass on the correct advice, I just don't get the robot "does not commpute" atitude (but then we all know it's about bonuses for tickets issued, so who am I kidding) I'll gladly stand in a queue of 15, while the little old granny asks numerous questions about how to get to leeds via Waterloo and can she use her bus pass ...... that took 5 mins last thursday.

And at present I will be appealing and pursuing other routes for a positive resolve.

 

[RJ]

But the HS1, is different in respect this is used by mainly commuters and not people dodging fares as per the North Kent line.

I used HS1 between Ashford and London on a regular basis without paying any fare. On one occasion, I had a hand in coaxing a fare evader off the train at Ashford International. He had boarded the train at Canterbury and I had to intervene as the guard was unable to handle situtation efficiently - he was delaying the train until the police arrived.

On another occasion, someone hiding in the toilets was foiled after departure from Ashford International. The guard brought the fare evader to the bay of seats next to me and basically dealt with him by extracting all the money he had (£20) and selling him a ticket to Ebbsfleet International, where he ensured said passenger got off. It was the last train of the day and the person was trying to get to London.

You might want to travel on the line a bit more before you grant yourself with Neighbourhood Watch status - it's subject to the same pondlife as any other line of the network . Also, with respect to queueing times, there is no grey area. If there's an opportunity to buy a ticket, then you have to buy one or risk having the law used against you. Take no notice of anyone on this forum who suggests otherwise as evidently, staff can and will issue a Penalty Fare if that is used as a reason for not holding a valid ticket!

 

[BrownE]

someone being sick next to me.

Oh, so, you clearly don't travel late at night much. I can think of five incidents within the past two months on the last train out of St. Pancras.

Then there's also trains out of CBW on Friday nights.

 

[markbigears]

no lates here, so I take your point, nothing is perfect. But "generally" coming from the North Kent line to HS1 ... well, admit it...... it isn't the same. And I can't use the line any more than I have, on the first day, I was on it and never looked back.

 

[transportphoto]

bb21, thank you for your contibution to my post. Reading beween the lines I take it you are a revenue Inspector.

Answering on bb21's behalf, bb21 doesn't work in the industry.

TP

 

[markbigears]

That's a shame, I honestly wanted to get his "inspector" view on things. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[MikeWh]

For the future, if you always travel from Gravesend to London and back to Higham, perhaps you should book online. You can pick the tickets up at any tickets-on-departure enabled machine, so if you get the next days tickets while in London you can print them before leaving St Pancras. This way you get round the problems of buying tickets for a future date, or from a station other than the one you are at. You can save favourite journeys to make future purchases even quicker.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

You'll get no sympathy here mate. You'll just get people who's world is black and white quoting and hiding behind ticket regulations.

Funnily enough, when dealing with ticketing, ticket regulations tend to matter a great deal, hence why people quote them. I'm not sure how we all hide behind them though.

 

[markbigears]

Many thanks Mike, I had no idea i could do that. I'll defo look into this, much appreciated.

 

[transportphoto]

You'll get no sympathy here mate. You'll just get people who's world is black and white quoting and hiding behind ticket regulations.

In this example we haven't called the OP a fare evader, nothing of the sort. However as the poster above me says, when dealing with ticketing matters, ticket byelaws and regulations do pay a massive part. We can't see any grounds for appeal in this case, we have to admit it. It could have been alot worse for the OP, I really think that this comment is over the top and totally inaccurate.

TP

 

[RJ]

You'll get no sympathy here mate. You'll just get people who's world is black and white quoting and hiding behind ticket regulations.

That's correct. The only people with the right to depart from the regulations by showing discretion in appeals is the Train Operating Company. Given that the OP asked for advice, it's not for us to pre-empt whether or not the TOC in question will do that, or enforce the regulations and byelaws applicable to the situation.

If you want to see "sympathy," there are plenty of consumer action websites out there that have intrinsically unhelpful rants bemoaning how unfair the system is. This site used to be like that until I pointed out that referring to the applicable rules would be much more helpful for people seeking advice. Since, others have jumped on the bandwagon and consequently, many people have a greater understanding of how to avoid penalties as a result.

 

[Flamingo]

Good reply, RJ.

 

[markbigears]

So, we think my chances of victory are zero! Hopefully tomorrow i'll hear something .... I'll post up what happens

 

[Flamingo]

Please do. Good luck,

 

[cuccir]

I think this forum takes the right approach - people set out the rules, often informing passengers of the worst case scenario, but explain ways in which a better resolution might be achieved. At times I suspect that posters on here tend towards the pessimistic side, but it's surely beneficial to have the rules stated clearly - the worst thing we could do is give overly optimistic responses, given that the outcomes of prosecution can be very negative for many people.

Many (most?) people would be happier to pay a slightly unfair £20 penalty fare, or even a ~£100-£200 out of court settlement, rather than challenge it and risk a fine + criminal record if they lose.

But then the OBM tells me they are wrong and should not have fined me and to appeal.

From this, I take it that you have already paid the penalty fare? If so then you should go ahead and appeal. As far as I can see, two things have worked against you here:

1. Well intentioned but factually incorrect advice from the train managers, which presumes that all staff will have their attitude, whether it is the right or wrong attitude to have

2. A lack of clarity on how long people should expect to wait at a station before being able to say that 'no ticket purchasing facilities were available'.

These don't change the fact that someone following the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, and rail byelaws, would still say you were in breach of them. But it might mean that if you get a sympathetic member of staff, you'll have your money refunded.

 

[34D]

This is only a guidance. It is a target that TOCs will aim to achieve on average. It does not give intending passengers a right to board a train without a ticket once he/she has waited this amount of time.

Unfortunately this is a grey area and there is no explicit threshold beyond which a passenger can board a service without a ticket.

I'll defer to your knowledge, however with a pledge like what is stated, I'd also assume that I was also allowed to do likewise.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

For the past 2 years, if I board without a valid ticket I seek out the On-Board-Manager, who, without exception, issues me a valid ticket from his personal machine.
(This is their own advice)

Perhaps you can get a letter from the area manager which acknowledges that, for customer service reasons, their staff have 'allowed' the foregoing to take place. Such a letter should support cancellation of the PF.

I must say that my fellow forum members are being very strict in their responses.

I will however agree with paying the PF within the time period.

 

[RJ]

So, we think my chances of victory are zero! Hopefully tomorrow i'll hear something .... I'll post up what happens

When you normally buy your ticket on board the train, is there any red text on the reverse of it?

 

[tannedfrog]

For the future, if you always travel from Gravesend to London and back to Higham, perhaps you should book online.

with cashback available too (on Southern's website?)

 

[bb21]

And I strongly disagree with you about the OBMs, you may not think them special, but I've never come across customer service as good on any standard train.

I don't have any objection to you having a good impression about HS1 guards. From what you have said, they are presenting the industry in good light and I am more than happy if you have good relationship with them. However your experience of the South East is not a true representation of staff across the country and that is what some people on here are trying to point out.

I can't work out if you are being funny or "funny" with that comment.

Why would I want to be sarcastic if that is what you mean?

I'm sorry, but I don't except "grey areas". If SET have differing rules for different staff and offering different information, then the company is to blame, not me.

There are no "grey areas". The legal position is clear. If your opinion is that guards on HS1 should not exercise their discretion because this then causes inconsistency then you're entitled to that opinion. If this is the case then you might want to raise this issue with SET.

Just because a guard offered incorrect advice which happened to agree with you does not mean that he is right, or that the other member of staff is not doing her job properly.

Did any previous guard actually tell you that you can get on a train without a ticket because there is a queue?

But now I know the score and will not board unless I have a ticket, All it would have taken from the Inspector was to actually hear what I had to say, think about it, and pass on the correct advice, I just don't get the robot "does not commpute" atitude (but then we all know it's about bonuses for tickets issued, so who am I kidding) I'll gladly stand in a queue of 15, while the little old granny asks numerous questions about how to get to leeds via Waterloo and can she use her bus pass ...... that took 5 mins last thursday.

The RPI could exercise her discretion, however that is not a right you are automatically entitled to. It does not matter how many times previously guards onboard used their discretion.

The simple matter of fact is that you broke the Byelaws / Penalty Fare regulations and the Penalty Fare is issued correctly. This means that she has done her job correctly.

And at present I will be appealing and pursuing other routes for a positive resolve.

As with others, I do wish you luck in your dealings with SET. It is a frustrating experience and is not something a passenger really needs who has been honest and paid his fares every time.

You came here for advice. I cannot give you false hope when the legal positions are pretty clear. You might not like what some people (including me) have told you, unfortunately this is where we stand with regard to railway legislation, despite the fact that they are nowhere near being perfect.

I'll defer to your knowledge, however with a pledge like what is stated, I'd also assume that I was also allowed to do likewise.

Some TOCs do show discretion if a passenger has waited a long time but still could not purchase his/her tickets. The problem is deciding how long. Thirty minutes is definitely long enough for any TOC, realistically. I am confident about that. Twenty minutes? You will probably have a good enough argument with almost all TOCs. Ten minutes? Probably not with most TOCs.

Unfortunately there is no defined threshold which would automatically entitle passengers to board services without a ticket when crossed.

 

[snail]

Perhaps you can get a letter from the area manager which acknowledges that, for customer service reasons, their staff have 'allowed' the foregoing to take place. Such a letter should support cancellation of the PF.

I must say that my fellow forum members are being very strict in their responses.

As the previous post and those from RJ and others have adequately pointed out, isn't that better than giving potentially false hope to someone?

As for your advice, is it really a good idea for the OP to admit in writing to to the TOC intentionally travelling without a ticket (albeit with no intent to avoid payment of the fare)? You only need one 'strict' manager to read it before passing it on to the prosecutions department. It's one thing people on here being strict; quite different results if it's the TOC.

 

[Clip]

Same applies at St Pancras, Stratford and Ebbsfleet with poor info. Despite being over 2 years into HS services, the on the ground staff are still very naive! In fact, most were taken off the street and had no railway background.

What a rather crass and pathetic comment. I think you will find that the majority of station staff have 'no railway background' when they join. It is all about how they are trained and how the retain the information given to them. Same goes for lots of TOCs everywhere not just SET.

I'm sorry, but I don't except "grey areas". If SET have differing rules for different staff and offering different information, then the company is to blame, not me

To be fair there really isnt any 'grey areas' with SET policy. They operate a penalty fare scheme.

The guards do have their ticket machines and quite often I have seen them issue tickets on both the HS1 and in and around the pleasantville that is Thanet. I have also at the same time seen RPIs issue penalty fares to those travelling without tickets on both HS1 and throughout the rest of Kent even when on the same train as I have witnessed a guard sell someone a ticket. That is what they are employed to do.

When it comes down to it, it is made pretty clear when you walk into a station that you must purchase a ticket before you travel or you may be subject to a penalty fare. The posters are bright yellow IIRC.

Even on their website about penalty fares they tell you that if you may not be able to buy at the station then purchase online.

Overall the guards are actually doing you a favour by regularly selling you a discounted ticket as they would be within their rights to sell you the full price return fare for your journey.

Of course SET may be leinient with you here and may waive the PF due to your percieved 'grey area' but if that does happen then in future I wouldnt expect any guard to be selling you anything less then the full price Anytime fare as they will have been instructed to ensure they gain full revenue from those without the correct ticket.

That of course, is just my opinion.

 

[thedbdiboy]

By the way, have you thought of buying the Gravesend - Higham single at St Pancras or wherever you actually start your journey? Any staffed ticket office can sell tickets from anywhere to anywhere on the GB network.

 

[markbigears]

bit of an update, no reply as yet from the Media Relations Dept forward email, but spoke this morning to my OBM in the HS1. Told him what happened yesterday, to which he replied "in our training, we are told to issue tickets to anyone waiting in a queue for more than 5 minutes and that the Inspectors are "helping" them during the Olympic period". This explains why i've never had this situation before. I've asked again for the OBMs manager to contact me to discuss this. Haven't paid any PF yet, have 21 days and no there is no red warning on the back of my ticket. Some really good advice from you guys, really appreciate it.