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HS2 and the next Prime Minister

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PartyOperator

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Boris Johnson is reported to be planning a review of HS2 if/when he becomes Prime Minister.

This must be the biggest threat to the project yet, got to think there's a high chance of cancellation now - if Boris was supportive there would be no need for any review.

The fact that he's only planning a review (and he's asked Douglas Oakervee to do it) should probably be seen as a good sign for the project. If he wanted it cancelled he'd just come out and say that - a review gives him a chance to maintain some constructive ambiguity during the campaign and climb down without anyone noticing. Lots of Conservative party members are opposed and he wants their votes. Rather like Theresa May's review of Hinkley Point C after having emphasised her security credentials and expressing concerns about Chinese involvement in the UK - she couldn't just come in and embrace a Chinese-funded nuclear plant without the appearance of some extra scrutiny, but after a good review it all carried on as expected. Phase 2 isn't as certain, but who knows who'll be in charge by the time final decisions are made there...
 
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DynamicSpirit

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Not just Shire Tories. There are lots of places in the North that can't see any benefits to them. I.e. Cumbria, Northern Lancashire, Northern Yorkshire, Newcastle, Northumberland, etc. A fair few MPs (of all parties) are actively campaigning about potential downsides and wanting real, more local improvements.

I imagine lots of places in the North couldn't see any benefits to their areas of GWR electrification, or re-opening Ebbw Vale or Portishead, or building HS1. No single new rail line, no matter how important, is ever going to be able to benefit every single corner of the country, and it's really daft to oppose a rail project in another part of the country just because it doesn't benefit your area.

Besides, Newcastle, northern Lancashire, and parts of North Yorkshire will benefit... once Phase 2 is built... in the form of faster trains to quite a few destinations south of Leeds/Manchester.
 

hwl

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Does he really think there should be a review or is this a desperate attempt to get votes from Shire County Tory members following the bad publicity of his altercation with Ms Symonds?
Boris's dad is directly affected by HS2 construction to the extent that JoJo when rail minister couldn't have anything to do with HS2. Hence he needs to be very careful.

The shire Tories are the majority of the party and probably a good number worried that HS2 will allow commuting from further out that won't keep their local house price inflation rocketing as there will be more commutable locations further away from cities and more semi-fast capacity on existing routes
 

Typhoon

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Not just Shire Tories. There are lots of places in the North that can't see any benefits to them. I.e. Cumbria, Northern Lancashire, Northern Yorkshire, Newcastle, Northumberland, etc. A fair few MPs (of all parties) are actively campaigning about potential downsides and wanting real, more local improvements.
True but I don't suppose he's looking any further than 22nd July at present and getting the Shire County Tories on board might go some way towards shoring up his vote right now. What the promise is worth on 23rd July is another matter.
 

Typhoon

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Boris's dad is directly affected by HS2 construction to the extent that JoJo when rail minister couldn't have anything to do with HS2. Hence he needs to be very careful.
Now that is interesting, thank you. However, although Boris has an extensive vocabulary, I don't think 'careful' features!
 

The Ham

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I don’t care a fig for Boris but if he bins HS2 he’s a fair bloke in my book. Biggest waste of money ever not to mention the amount of grief it’s causing to people along the route who are having their life’s turned upside down by something they don’t want.
Come on Boris Scrap it!!

Let's have a look at some of the background which is likely to be taken into account as part of the review:
- passenger growth seen since 2009 when it was announced, this had grown a lot more than predicted. If we set 2009 as the base with 100, then by 2026 with 2.5% growth per year it would have been 152 and by 2033 it would have reached 181. It currently is at 170 for travel between London & the regions which benefit from phase 1 and phase 2a whilst for all regions it's 150.

- passenger growth rates, in 2013 the report dropped the expected growth rate to 1.9%/year so they've moved the tagged. Yes they have but, using the same base of 100 in 2009, this new growth rate sets the 2033 target to 200 because of the growth seen between 2009 & 2013. As such the target had got higher. However because of the amount of growth seen to date the amount of growth between London and the regions which benefit from HS2 phase 1- 2a only now need to achieve an average of 1.1% per year to to 2033 to hit that target of 200. That will also include the first 7 years of phase 1 operation (assuming it opens on time) where growth is likely to spike.

- growth rates are falling and between London & the North West it was 0 between 2016/17 & 17/18, although that is true, what investment has been seen since the lengthening of the class 390's, what extra services now exist? Very few, so it's not a surprise that growth has slowed. However if Virgin brings in their new Liverpool service and the new franchise brings about more changes then more growth wouldn't be a suprise. It'll be interesting to see what the growth to Yorkshire and the North East will be this year and next with the new trains coming into service, which will also allow extra services.

- spending on the existing network, since 2009 there's been about £25bn spent on enhancements to the existing network (not including HS2, maintenance or new trains and although some of our was on Crossrail it was less than £3bn), the account spent has been growing year on year since 2009 (even after the start of spending on HS2).

- Better East West links, especially in the North, the Trans Pennies Upgrade is due to happen by the time phase 1 is due to open whilst Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) is planned to follow on from HS2. In fact NPR is reliant on HS2 infrastructure, so the canceling of HS2 is likely to push the costs for NPR up making it less likely to happen.

- Local services. By reviving the intercity services from existing platforms it allows the lengthening of existing trains. If you remove 2tph from a station those 11 coach trains could allow 4 trains of 6 coaches to occupy the same platform space. However those 4 trains would have been elsewhere in the station, meaning that 4 other services can be lengthened which were otherwise sharing platforms with those services. That's a total of 8 local trains an hour (120 over a 15 hour day) which can be lengthened, although that's not the final number. As long distance trains occupy stations at their end points for 30 plus minutes whilst local services are there for less than 20 minutes, allowing a 50% increase to 12 local services an hour (180 over a 15 hour day). There's a good chance it may not be that high, as some long distance services may become replaced by new local services, but that's still improving local services.

- Pacers (& other old trains), Pacers are due to be gone in just over 6 months time. Whilst between 2014 & 2024 there's due to be over 5,000 new coaches delivered, including over 100 to Northern and a load to TPE. However even that 5,000 isn't the full picture as it doesn't include the new trains for TfW or EMT

- Broadband. It's often argued that improving Broadband speeds would result in less travel. The picture to date appears to be that each person is reducing the amount they drive but increasing the amount of rail travel. This could be that if there's less daily commuting the cost per mile of driving guess up (due to the fixed costs not changing, and they can be fairly significant costs), as such it can be cheaper to use rail 50-150 times a year than drive 200+ times a year.

- Broadband speeds, broadband speeds are currently an average of 55mb/s with satellite internet giving the base speed of 30mb/s for those who need fast broadband it is available to them. However, the recent £100 million fund to get 100 rural schools 100mb/s broadband is currently looking for more schools as there's still finding available. That's over 100 villages which now have fiber broadband to them which the local community will be able to connect into benefiting hundreds of homes in each location.

Any review is likely to consider points like those above and so if anyone wishes to stop HS2 they need to be able to argue against the above points. Anyone fancy a go at doing so?
 

DarloRich

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I noticed in the press over the weekend that Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson feels the business case for HS2 is not robust.
 

squizzler

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When it comes to transport policy, Boris is known for his extraordinary skill to spaff (his word) money up the wall on his own vanity projects. Think the garden bridge, 'Boris Island' airport, the fatally flawed Cycle Superhighways, the overpriced Routemaster thing, to name a few of the transport boondoggles he has managed to preside over. He makes Grayling look highly capable by comparison!

If the chap became PM and did not burn a few million on a warmed over rehash or some previous report into HS2 it might indicate him to be losing his touch!
 

Ianno87

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When it comes to transport policy, Boris is known for his extraordinary skill to spaff (his word) money up the wall on his own vanity projects. Think the garden bridge, 'Boris Island' airport, the fatally flawed Cycle Superhighways, the overpriced Routemaster thing, to name a few of the transport boondoggles he has managed to preside over.

The Cable Car is the biggest one for me. Whilst a lovely trip across the river, it is a solution to a non-existent transport problem, and probably left TfL with a cost liability (save for the sponsorship revenue it generates)
 

HSTEd

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The Cable Car is the biggest one for me. Whilst a lovely trip across the river, it is a solution to a non-existent transport problem, and probably left TfL with a cost liability (save for the sponsorship revenue it generates)

The worst part about that was it cost far more than benchmark cableway systems, largely due to ridiculous scope creep and "architectural statement" stations.

As someone who is interested in the idea of urban cable transit.... it was not helpful. (If you want to see what a lightweight system looks like, see the Koblenz Cable Car)
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The next few weeks are going to be a masterclass in evasion of specific policy decisions.
Both Boris and (for a minute I forgot who the other bloke was...:)) Jeremy want to appeal to the widest spready of Tory members before the vote.
They will not want to alienate anybody by declaring for or against anything if they can help it.
Saying you will review it is just a way of deflecting the problem till later.
No prospective PM will be able to make a firm decision until their cabinet (not the current one) votes on it, and in that debate what the Treasury and Transport ministers think is paramount.
It's probably more important who Boris's Chancellor is going to be (probably not HS2-supporting Philip Hammond).
On top of which the progress on Brexit is relevant, and there are going to be hard choices if we go anywhere near a hard Brexit with its attendant costs.
On balance I still think they will proceed with Phase 1 and probably 2a (to Crewe), but delay Phase 2b until they have seen how the first project goes.
The complication is where NPR fits into all this.

And like Mr Trump, take every informal utterance from Boris with a large dose of salt, because he'll come back with the reverse position next week.
 

kevin_roche

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Any review is likely to consider points like those above and so if anyone wishes to stop HS2 they need to be able to argue against the above points. Anyone fancy a go at doing so?

Perhaps the answers are in the HS2 Phase 2a: statement of reasons which was released today. I haven't read it yet so I don't know.

Sets out the main measures to avoid, reduce and offset the major adverse effects of HS2 Phase 2a.

The report also summarises the work that has already been done to assess, control and mitigate the environmental impacts of the project.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Perhaps the answers are in the HS2 Phase 2a: statement of reasons which was released today. I haven't read it yet so I don't know.

As far as I can see it's mainly about environmental issues and mitigation measures to improve the acceptability of the route in advance of 3rd reading of the Phase 2a bill.
Things like reducing viaduct heights, improved tunnel sections, and land swaps to compensate for land take elsewhere.
There's nothing about the railway side of interest, or costs.
One thing that caught my eye was that 6 existing WCML services would transfer to HS2.
They would clearly be: Liverpool, Manchester via Crewe, and Glasgow (all 1tph now).
The Chester (not an HS2 service) probably wouldn't divert.
Maybe a Birmingham-Manchester would go that way.
But I'm struggling to find 6 WCML services to divert.
Maybe they are counting the other 2 Manchester services which currently go via Stoke, though they only use Lichfield-Colwich on the WCML.
 

hwl

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As far as I can see it's mainly about environmental issues and mitigation measures to improve the acceptability of the route in advance of 3rd reading of the Phase 2a bill.
Things like reducing viaduct heights, improved tunnel sections, and land swaps to compensate for land take elsewhere.
There's nothing about the railway side of interest, or costs.
One thing that caught my eye was that 6 existing WCML services would transfer to HS2.
They would clearly be: Liverpool, Manchester via Crewe, and Glasgow (all 1tph now).
The Chester (not an HS2 service) probably wouldn't divert.
Maybe a Birmingham-Manchester would go that way.
But I'm struggling to find 6 WCML services to divert.
Maybe they are counting the other 2 Manchester services which currently go via Stoke, though they only use Lichfield-Colwich on the WCML.

There are typically 2 TPH to Glasgow, one is via Birmingham which gets overtaken by the next not via Birmingham service hence often doesn't get counted as it gets over taken. I'd expect this service and one of the via Stoke services to be the other 2.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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There are typically 2 TPH to Glasgow, one is via Birmingham which gets overtaken by the next not via Birmingham service hence often doesn't get counted as it gets over taken. I'd expect this service and one of the via Stoke services to be the other 2.

I'm not sure the Euston-Birmingham-Scotland service will survive into the HS2 era, unless it continues to run on the classic route.
I don't think HS2 Ltd have thought out how to handle ex-Birmingham trains (to Manchester/Preston and beyond) along with WCML traffic.
That's what WCP is supposed to be all about - getting the right balance between the two routes.
 

158756

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As far as I can see it's mainly about environmental issues and mitigation measures to improve the acceptability of the route in advance of 3rd reading of the Phase 2a bill.
Things like reducing viaduct heights, improved tunnel sections, and land swaps to compensate for land take elsewhere.
There's nothing about the railway side of interest, or costs.
One thing that caught my eye was that 6 existing WCML services would transfer to HS2.
They would clearly be: Liverpool, Manchester via Crewe, and Glasgow (all 1tph now).
The Chester (not an HS2 service) probably wouldn't divert.
Maybe a Birmingham-Manchester would go that way.
But I'm struggling to find 6 WCML services to divert.
Maybe they are counting the other 2 Manchester services which currently go via Stoke, though they only use Lichfield-Colwich on the WCML.

The latest HS2 document I can find on the matter(2018) depicts one Liverpool, one Preston, one Glasgow and three Manchester services. This is of course far from final, but the Preston service is shown calling at Crewe, Wigan, Warrington while the Glasgow only does Preston, and none of the Manchester services would call at Crewe. Stoke in this scenario would have 1tph along the existing WCML to London, but I'm sure I've read on here that 4tph from Manchester (3 HS2, 1 Stoke) can't actually be done until phase 2b is built.
 

hwl

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I'm not sure the Euston-Birmingham-Scotland service will survive into the HS2 era, unless it continues to run on the classic route.
I don't think HS2 Ltd have thought out how to handle ex-Birmingham trains (to Manchester/Preston and beyond) along with WCML traffic.
That's what WCP is supposed to be all about - getting the right balance between the two routes.
And once they have that balance set (avoided so far) the benefits of released paths can be allocated to the HS2 business case to give BoJo a few more headaches :lol:
 
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