HS2 Euston - number of platforms... again...

[hwl]

unless you accept that the 10:20 will use a different platform to the 11:20 which will be a different platform to the 12:20 (which could cause issues for staff and passengers) you're unlikely to gain anything.

Which doesn't actually matter unless people have OCD and it doesn't actually happen at plenty of existing Termini at the moment.

You also want to avoid the same island having heavy traffic to both faces at the same time.

 

[Starmill]

Pendolinos to Euston today operate much longer journeys that what the HS2 stock will do.

HS2 rolling stock will almost inevitably end up resembling the interior of A Class 185 more than a Class 390.

I'm unsure exactly what the relationship is here with the infrastructure, but I'm afraid you've fundamentally misunderstood the nature of HS2.

 

[camflyer]

Looks like the decision to reduce Euston to 10 platforms is confirmed

HS2 to cut London Euston station to ten platforms

Plans for HS2's station at Euston to be built in two stages and to have 11 platforms have been changed by the government to a slightly smaller station with ten platforms, to be built in one single phase.

www.ianvisits.co.uk

Plans for HS2’s station at Euston to be built in two stages and to have 11 platforms have been changed by the government to a slightly smaller station with ten platforms, to be built in one single phase.

The decision to cut Euston station down to ten platforms was revealed in the six-monthly report released by HS2 minister Andrew Stephenson earlier today.

Probably an understandable decision in the short term but could cause problems long term. As I understand it, the amount of development planned around Euston means that it would be very difficult if not impossible to add extra platforms later.

 

[Jozhua]

I'm disappointed, but glad that a decision has been made. Ultimately something needs to get built, even if it is sub-par.

In terms of turnaround, is there any chance that a little crossover could be made to allow compatible services to load/offload at Euston? Seems like a way we could claw back a bit of platform capacity, been as Euston will likely have plenty once the Avanti services are gone.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they do need to build the 11th later I guess that means they would need to build it towards current Euston, i.e. encompassing P16, rather than increasing land take. That might well be feasible with a recast timetable reducing layover (move it elsewhere, e.g. to Northampton) and a reduced demand for commuter services.

 

[dm1]

Which doesn't actually matter unless people have OCD and it doesn't actually happen at plenty of existing Termini at the moment.

You also want to avoid the same island having heavy traffic to both faces at the same time.

It is very much worth doing, if you can and given HS2 is a new railway, there's no good reason why that shouldn't be designed in. It makes life much easier for passengers and staff alike.

And I'm sure that the platforms will be designed to handle two crush-loaded trains arriving on the same platform at the same time with two crush loads of departing passengers waiting to get on. That will be needed for evacuation reasons if nothing else - and there will be other mitigations in place if this is not possible.

Therefore that shouldn't really be a concern either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Pendolinos to Euston today operate much longer journeys that what the HS2 stock will do.

HS2 rolling stock will almost inevitably end up resembling the interior of A Class 185 more than a Class 390.

The spec has been published (don't have it to hand but it is linked from one of the HS2 threads somewhere) and it specifies end doors. So it will no doubt look very 80x like, which in terms of turnarounds would be the same as a 390.

 

[hwl]

The spec has been published (don't have it to hand but it is linked from one of the HS2 threads somewhere) and it specifies end doors. So it will no doubt look very 80x like, which in terms of turnarounds would be the same as a 390.

Very much like the Zefiro 300 in Italy on the outside and interiors similar to 80x but toilets inboard of the doors on the inside.

https://www.globalrailwayreview.com/article/74475/frecciarossa-1000/

 

[The Planner]

I'm disappointed, but glad that a decision has been made. Ultimately something needs to get built, even if it is sub-par.

In terms of turnaround, is there any chance that a little crossover could be made to allow compatible services to load/offload at Euston? Seems like a way we could claw back a bit of platform capacity, been as Euston will likely have plenty once the Avanti services are gone.

Not considering the HS2 station is substantially below the conventional platforms, no.

 

[Ianno87]

Which doesn't actually matter unless people have OCD and it doesn't actually happen at plenty of existing Termini at the moment.

You also want to avoid the same island having heavy traffic to both faces at the same time.

90% of passenger turn up at a terminus station and have no idea what platform their train will be on, even when it is regular and cyclic. And when it isn't cyclic, the OCD sorts will know the pattern anyway (e.g. regular Charing Cross commuters learning the every 22 minutes evening peak pattern)

And a good chunk of the 90% will find out via Apps, RealTimeTrains etc, as we now live in the future.

It only seems to matter to people who want a "neat" timetable, for some vague, unquantifiable benefit of bring "handy" or "convenient".

It is very much worth doing, if you can and given HS2 is a new railway, there's no good reason why that shouldn't be designed in. It makes life much easier for passengers and staff alike.

Or you design the railway and station infrastructure so that regular platforming patterns do not matter - make wayfinding easy, and the platforms capable of arriving/departing trains in any combination (from a passenger circulation perspective). Supported by the right information being given to passengers to direct them (which may be a battery powered device in your pocket).

 

[snowball]

I've always assumed that the 10/11 platforms question had nothing to do with the location of the western edge of the development and everything to do with the boundary between HS2 and the conventional platforms and tracks.

 

[edwin_m]

Not considering the HS2 station is substantially below the conventional platforms, no.

There was a "hybrid platform" shown on some early designs but that later disappeared, probably for this reason.

90% of passenger turn up at a terminus station and have no idea what platform their train will be on, even when it is regular and cyclic. And when it isn't cyclic, the OCD sorts will know the pattern anyway (e.g. regular Charing Cross commuters learning the every 22 minutes evening peak pattern)

Unless it's always the same platform, as at Piccadilly P14 where the other platforms physically don't connect to the track in question, it's probably best not to create an assumption in regular passengers' minds that platforming will be consistent. Otherwise people may go to the relevant platform without checking, and be caught out on the occasions it has to depart from somewhere else.

I've always assumed that the 10/11 platforms question had nothing to do with the location of the western edge of the development and everything to do with the boundary between HS2 and the conventional platforms and tracks.

Yes. Demolishing another slice of Euston isn't beyond the bounds of possibility, and appears to have been the reason for the two-stage approach discussed earlier. But having taken out a swathe of non-railway buildings to the west, there would be an outcry if they asked for more or even if they didn't use all of it.

 

[mr_jrt]

What takes the time in those 30 minute turnarounds? Presumably if you build the stations with multiple escalators/steps on and off the platforms you can disperse along the length of the platforms more quickly, and then it's just a case of emptying some "tanks" and refilling others, neither of which should take more than a few minutes. Restocking the galley should be doable quickly with a prepared trolley or two, and that then leaves the big one - cleaning. Presumably the carriages could be optimised to speed that up? i.e. material choices, all seats having quick remove covers, etc., dedicated cleaner per carriage, etc.

 

[hwl]

I've always assumed that the 10/11 platforms question had nothing to do with the location of the western edge of the development and everything to do with the boundary between HS2 and the conventional platforms and tracks.

Correct, Euston stage 1 would have the western most 6 HS platform open and in service 2026 2028-31 for Phase 1. This also allowed some of the construction for stage 2 of the eastern 5 platforms before the demolition started on P16 after the western 6 platforms opened.
The reality got a bit more complicated with phase 2a following so soon after and wanting more platforms before all of 7-11 were complete.
Hence settling for 10 in one stage simplifies things with phase 2a following stage 1 more closely than originally planned.

 

[quantinghome]

What takes the time in those 30 minute turnarounds? Presumably if you build the stations with multiple escalators/steps on and off the platforms you can disperse along the length of the platforms more quickly, and then it's just a case of emptying some "tanks" and refilling others, neither of which should take more than a few minutes. Restocking the galley should be doable quickly with a prepared trolley or two, and that then leaves the big one - cleaning. Presumably the carriages could be optimised to speed that up? i.e. material choices, all seats having quick remove covers, etc., dedicated cleaner per carriage, etc.

It's something like 5 minutes run-in, run-out + 15 minutes actual turnaround activities + 10 minutes allowance for delays.

My thoughts (for what little they are worth) were that the HS2-only services could work as 5+10+5 = 20 minutes, and classic-compatibles 'step-back' to have a 40 minute turnaround, possibly 60 minutes for Scotland. But I've no idea if that's achievable.

 

[rower40]

An extra platform would be useful as somewhere to put the protesters.

 

[edwin_m]

An extra platform would be useful as somewhere to put the protesters.

It appears DfT has endorsed the "no platform" policy that the Tories seem to be so opposed to for universities.

 

[ABB125]

It appears DfT has endorsed the "no platform" policy that the Tories seem to be so opposed to for universities.

 

[Bald Rick]

What takes the time in those 30 minute turnarounds? Presumably if you build the stations with multiple escalators/steps on and off the platforms you can disperse along the length of the platforms more quickly, and then it's just a case of emptying some "tanks" and refilling others, neither of which should take more than a few minutes. Restocking the galley should be doable quickly with a prepared trolley or two, and that then leaves the big one - cleaning. Presumably the carriages could be optimised to speed that up? i.e. material choices, all seats having quick remove covers, etc., dedicated cleaner per carriage, etc.

For a long distance train with end doors, typically you need to allow 3 minutes from wheels stop to having everyone off (more often than not there will be a bike, wheelchair, or someone needing assistance). Then you want the train open for boarding at least 10 minutes before departure. Doesn’t leave much time for anything else.

HS2 trains are unlikely to need tanks filling, and certainly not emptying, at Euston. Refreshment restock is relatively quick (modules off, models on). Cleaning can be quick too - 5minutes easily. Time also has to be allowed for staff handover, but that can be parallel with boarding. All this stuff has been studied in some detail by operations people in the past - including me!

 

[chiltern trev]

When London Fenchurch Street was running at maximum capacity, almost everyone knew where they were going already because they did it every day, almost nobody had any luggage beyond their backpack, briefcase, or handbag, and nobody had a reserved seat. Trains were also much shorter than 400m and the doors were wider. It doesn't seem really much more relevant than the Victoria line.

Also Fenchurch Street has a 4 track final, approach, each of which can hold a 12 car, and so gives a lot of flexibility in the final mile.

 

[edwin_m]

Also Fenchurch Street has a 4 track final, approach, each of which can hold a 12 car, and so gives a lot of flexibility in the final mile.

This means a train going to the north side of the station can switch to the northern pair of tracks further east and pass a train leaving the south side "on the right", avoiding the conflict that would occur if all crossing moves were just off the platform ends. However the way one of the HS2 tracks on the Euston approach splits underground to emerge both sides of the other one gives the same benefit there.

 

[InOban]

I

For a long distance train with end doors, typically you need to allow 3 minutes from wheels stop to having everyone off (more often than not there will be a bike, wheelchair, or someone needing assistance). Then you want the train open for boarding at least 10 minutes before departure. Doesn’t leave much time for anything else.

HS2 trains are unlikely to need tanks filling, and certainly not emptying, at Euston. Refreshment restock is relatively quick (modules off, models on). Cleaning can be quick too - 5minutes easily. Time also has to be allowed for staff handover, but that can be parallel with boarding. All this stuff has been studied in some detail by operations people in the past - including me!

I think passenger movement will be speeded up by level boarding. And I assume that a cleaning team can join at Old Oak Common .

 

[Bald Rick]

I think passenger movement will be speeded up by level boarding.

It will, but not much. The constraint is simply half a 26m coach full of passengers collecting luggage etc and following each other out single file.

Level boarding also helps the catering modules - that should be a bit quicker with no need to put Ramps up.

 

[hwl]

I

I think passenger movement will be speeded up by level boarding. And I assume that a cleaning team can join at Old Oak Common .

The HS2 rolling stock spec specifies quite few things to improve boarding /alighting times compared to current UK end door stock (including level boarding and gap fillers (level HS2 platforms or angled for existing). While main focused on high churn intermediate locations (e.g. OOC) they also be useful at termini.
Helpful but not a massive impact, but it is probably all about a number of small improvements adding up (above all not doing anything silly).

It will, but not much. The constraint is simply half a 26m coach full of passengers collecting luggage etc and following each other out single file.

Level boarding also helps the catering modules - that should be a bit quicker with no need to put Ramps up.

One of the things in the rolling stock spec that is useful is vestibule and door layouts that have a reasonable "storage" standing capacity so lots of pax can be waiting by the doors away for the aisle in the seated area (lesson learned from 80x, back to Mk4 etc.

Catering - a lesson learned from recent HS2 experience elsewhere is that you can put catering trolley and venting machines in the crumple zones in the end vehicles so there can be less trolley (un) loading per journey.

With some of the shorter journey times (Birmingham /Manchester) there may not be that much catering use. And specifying a decent number of bins too should help.

 

[Mikey C]

This BBC article confirms the 10 platforms, and has images of what the station will look like

HS2's Euston station will feature a roof coloured bronze or gold, the architects have said.
Designers hope the "innovative" structure will be an "identifying feature" of the north London terminus.
Its design will maximise the amount of natural light that reaches the concourse below, HS2 said.

HS2's Euston Station to have bronze or gold-coloured roof

Architects hope the structure will be an "identifying feature" of the north London station.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Bletchleyite]

That looks quite good. Excellent news that the cheapo inflatable plastic bubble design that looks awful wherever it's used is not a major part of it.

Another UK station (like London Bridge) that looks like it's in Switzerland. We need more of this.

 

[100andthirty]

The BBC and many other media reports in more or less detail are all based on this press release from HS2: https://mediacentre.hs2.org.uk/news/first-look-at-new-designs-for-hs2-london-euston-station

 

[WesternBiker]

Another UK station (like London Bridge) that looks like it's in Switzerland. We need more of this.

Agreed - especially on the Swiss comparison.

While not flawless (see the Quality of new station constructions thread) Reading also looks like a station you might find in Germany - plenty of platform capacity and a decent amount of circulating space. Let's hope the Euston design doesn't get compromised by the British obsession of plonking additional cheap retail units everywhere (cf Stansted airport).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed - especially on the Swiss comparison.

While not flawless (see the Quality of new station constructions thread) Reading also looks like a station you might find in Germany - plenty of platform capacity and a decent amount of circulating space. Let's hope the Euston design doesn't get compromised by the British obsession of plonking additional cheap retail units everywhere (cf Stansted airport).

Yes, Reading is definitely up there with well-designed, high-quality mainland European design. Though they do need to sort the 1990s concourse, which is horribly run-down.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yes, Reading is definitely up there with well-designed, high-quality mainland European design. Though they do need to sort the 1990s concourse, which is horribly run-down.

It’s such an unfortunate contrast to come out of the shiny and modern platforms and footbridge and then enter that dated arcade space with closed shops and the very temporary looking M&S in the middle.