HS2 frequency to remain at 18 trains per hour confirms minister

[Bald Rick]

I assume 18tph is from Euston-OOC-Birmingham Interchange (although not all stopping at Interchange).

With 8 platforms at Euston, then 2 lines to OOC (8 platforms), then 2 lines to just south of Birmingham Interchange, which has 4 platforms

3tph then go to Birmingham, leaving 15tph north of the Birmingham spur. Are there 4 tracks from Birmingham spur north to phase 2B? Or does that only allow 3 Birmingham starters

After the East/West split, that 15tph would then be

West 8tph
2tph Crewe-Liverpool/Lancashire
2tph Preston-Scotland
3tph Manchester
1tph Macclesfield

East 6tph
2tph Leeds
1tph Leeds / Sheffield
1tph York / Sheffield
2tph Newcastle

And 1tph reserved

What's the current plan for Birmingham starters heading north (rather than Euston starters)?

Will the East and West route be built for 18tph even though they won't have that many trains?

2 tracks from Euston to OOC
6 tracks and platforms at OOC
2 tracks OOC to B’ham Interchange
6 tracks with 4 platforms and 2 through tracks at B’ham Interchange
4 tracks north from B’ham Interchange
Birmingham branch tracks for south chord come off the outer pair, but 4 tracks continue north
Birmingham North chord tracks join (northbound on outside, Birmingham bound between the two ‘up’ tracks
6 tracks north for a kilometre or so where everything is ‘sorted out’
2 tracks to NE (northbound is track 2 looking from west to east, southbound is track 6)
4 tracks to NW, which become 2 almost immediately.

 

[Bald Rick]

no because the eastern branch is 'south' of the Birmingham branch. It's 4-track from south of Birmingham Interchange through to North of where the Birmingham spur's northern chord joins the mainline.

Not so, see this link (warning, big file)

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/378440/C223-CSI-CV-DPP-030-000023.pdf

 

[si404]

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/378440/C223-CSI-CV-DPP-030-000023.pdf

Or, as I just double checked after seeing your post, https://www.hs2.org.uk/where/route-map/#12/52.5128/-1.6973

Yep I wasn't correct.

And this is how many tph there'd be under current published proposals (including Midland Connect) on each stretch:

Euston to B’ham branch south-facing junction: 17tph
Through B'ham branch junction: 14tph
B'ham branch: 10tph
B'ham branch north-facing to Y-junction: 21tph
Y-junction to Handsacre Junction: 11tph
Y-junction to East Midlands Hub: 10tph
East Midlands Hub to junction for Sheffield: 12tph
junction for Sheffield to junction for Leeds: 10tph
junction for Leeds to Church Fenton: 4tph
Leeds branch: 6tph
Handsacre Junction to Crewe: 10tph
Crewe to junction for Manchester: 8tph
Manchester branch: 5tph
junction for Manchester to Golborne: 3tph

 

[si404]

It’s planned 11tph via the Western leg and 7 on the eastern leg

9 on the eastern leg, not 7, under HS2 plans
Western leg: 11tph

1. London - Macclesfield
2. London - Liverpool/Lancaster
3. London - Liverpool
4. London - Scotland
5. London - Scotland
6. London - Manchester
7. London - Manchester
8. London - Manchester
9. Birmingham - Scotland
10. Birmingham - Manchester
11. Birmingham - Manchester

Eastern leg: 9tph (plus the Midlands Connect services)

1. London - Sheffield/Leeds
2. London - Sheffield/York
3. London - Leeds
4. London - Leeds
5. London - Newcastle
6. London - Newcastle
7. Birmingham - Leeds
8. Birmingham - Leeds
9. Birmingham - Newcastle
10. Birmingham - Nottingham (Midlands Connect)
11. Bedford - Leeds (Midlands Connect)

 

[Bald Rick]

Which leads to the questions:

Will HS2 be the first highspeed railway in the world to have a 6 track high speed formation away from a station?

Will HS2 be the first highspeed railway in the world where it will be possible to have 4 services operating concurrently at high speed on the same stretch of formation?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

9 on the eastern leg, not 7, under HS2 plans
Western leg: 11tph

1. London - Macclesfield
2. London - Liverpool/Lancaster
3. London - Liverpool
4. London - Scotland
5. London - Scotland
6. London - Manchester
7. London - Manchester
8. London - Manchester
9. Birmingham - Scotland
10. Birmingham - Manchester
11. Birmingham - Manchester

Eastern leg: 9tph (plus the Midlands Connect services)

1. London - Sheffield/Leeds
2. London - Sheffield/York
3. London - Leeds
4. London - Leeds
5. London - Newcastle
6. London - Newcastle
7. Birmingham - Leeds
8. Birmingham - Leeds
9. Birmingham - Newcastle
10. Birmingham - Nottingham (Midlands Connect)
11. Bedford - Leeds (Midlands Connect)

I meant from London.

8tph from London on the Western Leg and the other 6 on the Eastern Leg. Obviously 3tph to Birmingham.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Which leads to the questions:

Will HS2 be the first highspeed railway in the world to have a 6 track high speed formation away from a station?

Will HS2 be the first highspeed railway in the world where it will be possible to have 4 services operating concurrently at high speed on the same stretch of formation?

Does China do it or Japan? If no, then probably.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Is it possible the 18th path could be used for an extra London to Glasgow Central service to serve Oxenholme, Penrith, Lockerbie and Motherwell.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

when it opens it will start out like this in December 2029:



From December 2031 when Phase 1 fully opens:



When Phase 2a Opens:



As my post above this is the full network in December 2035.

 

[edwin_m]

Is it possible the 18th path could be used for an extra London to Glasgow Central service to serve Oxenholme, Penrith, Lockerbie and Motherwell.

Unlikely. Upping the London-Glasgow (not via Birmingham) from hourly to half-hourly already puts extra pressure on northern WCML capacity. The latest train service assumption posted above worsens that slightly by splitting the Scotland train at Carlisle instead of Carstairs. This does give Carlisle a much better service as those trains weren't planned to stop previously, but makes the "freight window" in each hour about 25min compared with about 40min today. The Manchester-Scotland train will still need to operate and will probably provide a connection out of the London trains at Preston.

 

[BayPaul]

Is it possible the 18th path could be used for an extra London to Glasgow Central service to serve Oxenholme, Penrith, Lockerbie and Motherwell.

It would seem more likely that the Lancaster service would be extended to these stations if an HS2 service to them was needed. Alternatively the second Liverpool could have another portion detach at Crewe, rather than use the extra path.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

It would seem more likely that the Lancaster service would be extended to these stations if an HS2 service to them was needed. Alternatively the second Liverpool could have another portion detach at Crewe, rather than use the extra path.

Good point. They did suggest that in the Crewe Hub consultation during Phase 2a. Maybe have the Lancaster portion go to Carlisle or Glasgow then have the other Liverpool service split too and run it to Lancaster or Preston.

 

[quantinghome]

Or, as I just double checked after seeing your post, https://www.hs2.org.uk/where/route-map/#12/52.5128/-1.6973

Yep I wasn't correct.

And this is how many tph there'd be under current published proposals (including Midland Connect) on each stretch:

Euston to B’ham branch south-facing junction: 17tph
Through B'ham branch junction: 14tph
B'ham branch: 10tph
B'ham branch north-facing to Y-junction: 21tph
Y-junction to Handsacre Junction: 11tph
Y-junction to East Midlands Hub: 10tph
East Midlands Hub to junction for Sheffield: 12tph
junction for Sheffield to junction for Leeds: 10tph
junction for Leeds to Church Fenton: 4tph
Leeds branch: 6tph
Handsacre Junction to Crewe: 10tph
Crewe to junction for Manchester: 8tph
Manchester branch: 5tph
junction for Manchester to Golborne: 3tph

And that doesn't include NPR services. I think the aspiration is for 6tph Sheffield-Leeds, and I can imagine Sheffield would also want some sort of direct service to York and beyond bypassing Leeds. Even if those aspirational frequencies are cut back it's still a huge number of trains.

The Manchester branch and Leeds-Church Fenton appears to have a good amount of spare capacity for NPR to use.

I'd also think a fast Birmingham-Liverpool service would be likely.

 

[si404]

when it opens it will start out like this in December 2029:

And is the same basic shape if phase 2a opens before Euston, only using Crewe instead of Handsacre

From December 2031 when Phase 1 fully opens:

Unless phase 2a is open, as planned, in which case it is skipped.

And that doesn't include NPR services. I think the aspiration is for 6tph Sheffield-Leeds, and I can imagine Sheffield would also want some sort of direct service to York and beyond bypassing Leeds. Even if those aspirational frequencies are cut back it's still a huge number of trains.

Indeed. I left them off because they aren't as fully fledged service proposals yet.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

And is the same basic shape if phase 2a opens before Euston, only using Crewe instead of Handsacre
Unless phase 2a is open, as planned, in which case it is skipped.
Indeed. I left them off because they aren't as fully fledged service proposals yet.

Thats via Phase 1 only via Handsacre

Phase 2a would just see the addition of Macclesfield route and splitting of the Liverpool service as per the business case.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

It is proposed i think that NPR will connect to Leeds through platforms rather than the terminating ones so the 4 Sheffield To Leeds services could have 2 continue to Newcastle and 2 terminate there.

The 4 services from Manchester I'd have 2 which run to Nottingham and Cleethorpes as at present then have the other two go to Hull via Doncaster.

 

[si404]

Thats via Phase 1 only via Handsacre

Indeed. Phase 1 only. That's my point - the plan is that phase 1 will never be fully open without phase 2a also open.

The narrative of the business case is that that service pattern is something that should not happen if all goes to plan, and is only there in case of delays in the parliamentary approval of phase 2a. Opening is planned to be 1a-2a-1b-2b.

The narrative your posting of the diagrams suggested was that opening would be 1a-1b-2a-2b.

(1a is OOC to Curzon Street/Handsacre, 1b is Euston-OOC. This is my unofficial terminology).

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Indeed. Phase 1 only. That's my point - the plan is that phase 1 will never be fully open without phase 2a also open.

The narrative of the business case is that that service pattern is something that should not happen if all goes to plan, and is only there in case of delays in the parliamentary approval of phase 2a. Opening is planned to be 1a-2a-1b-2b.

The narrative your posting of the diagrams suggested was that opening would be 1a-1b-2a-2b.

(1a is OOC to Curzon Street/Handsacre, 1b is Euston-OOC. This is my unofficial terminology).

One Problem is Euston. Until Euston is opened then it will remain at 6tph it only increases to 10tph because of Euston being opened.

 

[si404]

One Problem is Euston. Until Euston is opened then it will remain at 6tph it only increases to 10tph because of Euston being opened.

Yes, as I said above!

And is the same basic shape if phase 2a opens before Euston, only using Crewe instead of Handsacre.

Unlike you, who have 10tph.

When Phase 2a Opens:

View attachment 78639

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

according to Modern Railways hs2 phase 2a will open at the same time as Phase 1 in 2029 with all trains heading straight to crewe. Powers allow for it to use Handsacre instead but the intention is to run them to Crewe, Handsacre won't be used until Euston opens in 2031.



from December 2031 (when Euston is planned to Open) then it increases to 10tph.



Then from December 2035:



I forgot to look at my modern railways magazine article which says this is the plan.

 

[si404]

I forgot to look at my modern railways magazine article which says this is the plan.

It's in the report where you took the diagrams from - you didn't need the modern railways for that!

But yes, thanks for that post - that's the plan.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I struggle sometimes to understand things unless it is completely clear.

 

[Bletchleyite]

400m to Brum but 200 to Manchester and Scotland? Have they even looked at loadings of current WCML services?

And I still think no direct London-Oxenholme service is stupid, it's about the biggest tourist destination in the country bar the Westcountry (unless the plan is to start all Windermeres back at Lancaster I suppose, thus removing its importance entirely). The Lancaster terminator really should run all stations to Carlisle.

 

[Ianno87]

400m to Brum but 200 to Manchester and Scotland? Have they even looked at loadings of current WCML services?

And I still think no direct London-Oxenholme service is stupid, it's about the biggest tourist destination in the country bar the Westcountry (unless the plan is to start all Windermeres back at Lancaster I suppose, thus removing its importance entirely). The Lancaster terminator really should run all stations to Carlisle.

You can't get 400m trains into existing Manchester Piccadilly or Glasgow Central.

Liveable with short-term as you lose the demand from Milton Keynes, Stoke etc of the Manchesters, plus the Lancaster terminator for Wigan/Warrington etc. demand.

Once 2b opens, Manchester can become 400 metres, and Glasgow becomes 400 metres by gaining an Edinburgh portion as far as Carlisle.

Unlikely to be capacity to extend Lancasters to Carlisle on any kind of regular basis (which only picks up the relatively minor demand from Oxenholme/Penrith anyway which would struggle to justify the extra Ops costs)

 

[cle]

Poor Stockport!

 

[Ianno87]

Poor Stockport!

It's "Manchester South Parkway" role (which is the real reason for it being served today) will be performed by Manchester Airport HS2 station instead.

Many current users are likely to actually find that an increase in convenience.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Poor Stockport!

There were always going to be two big losers with HS2, because serving them is decidedly awkward and they on their own don't justify their present level of service, but get it because it's operationally convenient at present. Coventry is the other one.

There are plenty of examples of this on the network, though - minor stations on Merseyrail are a good example, e.g. Aughton Park, Town Green, Capenhurst, Bache, Little Sutton and Overpool, none of which really justify more than an hourly DMU but might as well have the full service or near to it because it's easier.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

400m to Brum but 200 to Manchester and Scotland? Have they even looked at loadings of current WCML services?

And I still think no direct London-Oxenholme service is stupid, it's about the biggest tourist destination in the country bar the Westcountry (unless the plan is to start all Windermeres back at Lancaster I suppose, thus removing its importance entirely). The Lancaster terminator really should run all stations to Carlisle.

Manchester services and Scotland services will get lengthened by 2035 to 400 metres but because they go Manchester services go via the WCML until Phase 2b is opened it will have to be 200 metres.

Lancaster should go to Carlisle although the London to Glasgow via Birmingham service may stay according to the business case.



but not in the PM Peak:



but this is just Phase 1 and 2a when Phase 2b opens will that change?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The PM peak, specifically on a Friday, being when it'd most be needed!

How about looking at the GWR operation (or Eurostar), and considering a direct classic-line London to Windermere service on a Friday evening and a return on Sunday, and perhaps every day in school holiday time? There'll hopefully be room for stuff like that post HS2.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

The PM peak, specifically on a Friday, being when it'd most be needed!

How about looking at the GWR operation (or Eurostar), and considering a direct classic-line London to Windermere service on a Friday evening and a return on Sunday, and perhaps every day in school holiday time? There'll hopefully be room for stuff like that post HS2.

Yes. The business does state about additional direct links to places that are either limited (like Shrewsbury, Wrexham and Holyhead) or have none at all (like Barrow, Windermere and Aberystwyth). Good idea though.