HS2 frequency to remain at 18 trains per hour confirms minister

[CW2]

Looking at RTT over the past week, we're talking about around 3 trains in each direction during the day - most already runs at night. That level of traffic shouldn't be dictating the whole timetable. If we can find however many billions for HS2 it can't be impossible to provide sufficient incentive for the freight operators to give up the paths, or to find space to park three trains somewhere along the WCML.

Alternatively - Settle to Carlisle might have gauging issues, but with coal gone it's practically redundant in it's current state, a huge length of track prone to needing expensive repairs, existing almost solely for a lightly loaded DMU every few hours. If not to take freight away from Shap, what else can it be used for?

As Ianno87 stated, it's not reasonable to take the present reduced timetable as an example. You would need to go down to "Firm Contractual Rights" levels in the individual TOC contracts to determine how many paths you would need to cater for in the current timetable, let alone cater for future growth.

Putting freight trains into loops really must be the last resort. They take time to slow down and crawl into the loop, and even longer to get going again. That's why you see very few long / heavy intermodal trains hauled by single class 66s north of Preston during daylight. Basically they take hours longer to do Crewe - Mossend than an electric-hauled class 4.

It's going to take some clever timetabling - and the decision to split / join HS2 trains at Carlisle makes the issue worse. I doubt that an even-interval passenger timetable is compatible with continuing to run daytime freight.

 

[Tony43]

can a cl92 keep reasonable time assuming there are some availible

 

[CW2]

Class 92s are ideal for the route - bags of power and 6 axles. Not sure how many are available for use now. Still doesn't help much if you are dealing with 60 mph freight vehicles though.

 

[Bald Rick]

Class 92s are ideal for the route - bags of power and 6 axles. Not sure how many are available for use now. Still doesn't help much if you are dealing with 60 mph freight vehicles though.

It helps loads! Getting up each of Shap / Beattock with a 92 is several minutes quicker than a 66, and every minute counts.

 

[edwin_m]

Are there many daytime 60mph trains on the northern WCML these days?

 

[The Planner]

Are there many daytime 60mph trains on the northern WCML these days?

More than you would think.

 

[CW2]

More than you would think.

Rather less than there used to be, now that the flows of coal from Scotland to assorted English power stations have ceased. Likewise there's a lot less steel moving back and fore.
As a current example of a northbound daytime class 6 path, take a look at this one:
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H17920/2020-06-03/detailed
13:41 Carlisle Brunthill - Oxwellmains cement empties.
It is timed for a diesel loco with 600 tonnes trailing.
Key timings are:
Carlisle Kingmoor Jn 14/29
Quintinshill 14:50 - 15:10
Lockerbie 15:29 - 15:39.5
Beattock Summit 16:11.5 - 16:35
Abington 16:46 - 16:57
Carstairs South Jn 17/16
So 167 minutes from Kingmoor Jn to Carstairs South Jn, including over an hour spent in loops.
For comparison, a Pendolino will do it in 41.5 minutes.
Moving a class 6 freight during daytime consumes a lot of capacity.

 

[ABB125]

Are there standard freight paths every hour? eg: passenger flight then 75mph path then 60mph path

 

[CW2]

The northern end of the WCML underwent a complete rewrite for the December 2008 launch of Virgin Trains 125 mph goes-like-sh*t-off-a-tilting-stick services. At that time there were standard hour freight paths - and a single class 6 coal train would consume all available freight capacity in a two-hour period. Since then, the coal traffic has largely disappeared, and TPE services have arrived, so the timetable is a bit more crowded and less "standard hour" than it once was.

 

[JonathanH]

Back on topic, I’ll assume that the standard Oxenholme to Carlisle service pattern will be:
2tph Euston to Scotland
1tph Curzon Street to Scotland
1tph Classic line Euston to Scotland via Birmingham
1tph Manchester Airport to Scotland
1tph miscellaneous e.g. Liverpool to Scotland, open access & rush hour extras.

6tph between Oxenholme and Carlisle? What is the signalling headway? Are the two trains from Euston at even intervals?
Even if they ran flighted that would be most of the hour once stops at Oxenholme and Penrith are allowed for.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder this thread is to discuss developments regarding the HS2 frequency. If anyone wishes to discuss anything else, please create a new thread (if there isn't one already).

If anyone wishes to post any ideas or suggestions, we do welcome these, but they must be posted in the Speculative Ideas section please. I will move some posts to that section now.

Thank you