HS2 in the press

[MidlandMainlie]

Just found this ridiculous anti-HS2 article in the Mail

Millions will face transport chaos because HS2 work 'will cause a decade of disruption on West Coast mainline'
By RAY MASSEY

Millions of passengers on the West Coast mainline face a decade of ‘catastrophic’ disruption caused by work on the £50billion HS2 high-speed project, a damning dossier of official papers reveals today.
Train bosses also warn of delays and train shortages on the link between London, the North and Scotland and chronic passenger overcrowding on platforms at London Euston, one of Britain’s busiest stations.
Up to four out of 10 trains risk running late between 2016 and 2026 as preparation and construction work is carried out on the southern terminus of the proposed high-speed project.

Campaigners say Euston will be turned into 'the Heathrow of rail' and that West Coast and commuter passengers will pay the price of the Government's high-speed 'folly'

Internal documents seen by the Mail reveal forecasts that show punctuality and performance will 'be likely to worsen by between 4 and 8 per cent’ though warns ‘bad days would be significantly worse'.
Until now, passengers have been unaware of the full extent to which their conventional long-distance and commuter lines face disruption while platforms at Euston are closed and services cut to make way for the new HS2 line.
Train companies including Virgin are understood to be furious at the prospect of disruption to one of the nation’s two main London to Scotland routes serving Birmingham, the North West of England and on to Glasgow.

Details have emerged from documents obtained following a series of Freedom of Information requests by campaigners at the HS2 Action Alliance (HS2AA) and shown to the Mail.
They make clear that the Department for Transport and Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin are fully aware and in the loop over the impending West Coast chaos.
Campaigners against the scheme say the problems unearthed are just ‘the tip of the iceberg’.

The FOI documents reveal
Disruption to services for at least ten years from December 2016
Rail bosses are confident ‘works don’t have a catastrophic effect on existing services’ only ‘from 2017 onwards’
For the rest of the time performance will be ‘fragile’
Fewer than 60 per cent of long-distance services will arrive on time
‘Significant’ weekend and Bank Holiday closures with widespread disruption in holiday periods including Christmas
Platform numbers at Euston reduced from 18 to 13, with the number of approach tracks reduced from six to four
Virgin train services will have to leave Euston just 25 minutes after arrival, leaving little time for servicing and cleaning
Passengers face a 22 per cent shortfall in capacity in suburban services to major commuter stations such as Harrow and Wealdstone, Watford, Hemel Hempstead and Berkhamsted.Construction could result in a reduction in Birmingham and Manchester train from three to two an hour

The first phase of the high-speed line from London to Birmingham is due for completion in 2026, with a second phase, taking the line on a Y-shaped route to north west and north east England, due to be finished in 2032/33.
The Government also suffered a blow this week when Mr McLoughlin admitted for the first time that the HS2 Bill will now miss its target of being passed through Parliament before next year’s General Election.
Richard Houghton, of HS2 Action Alliance, who made the Freedom of Information request, said: ‘This is turning into a pantomime.
‘From the moment spades go in the ground, HS2 will needlessly create the very sort of chaos and capacity crisis it is proposed to avoid.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...uption-West-Coast-mainline.html#ixzz2vGIiQS3y
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Funny how they don't mention an alternative series of upgrades to the WCML will cause far more disruption to existing passengers

 

[edwin_m]

While it is probably twisted out of all proportion disruption at Euston is a valid question. It's probably the most significant place where HS2 impacts on the existing network.

In an ideal world a link from Crossrail to the WCML would be built first, so that the shorter distance LM services could be diverted to free up some capacity.

 

[MarkyT]

Just found this ridiculous anti-HS2 article in the Mail . . . Funny how they don't mention an alternative series of upgrades to the WCML will cause far more disruption to existing passengers

I don't think The Mail has taken a consistent anti-HS2 line so far editorially, but here perhaps it's taking a more familiar position - it does love a 'chaos on the railways' story.

 

[pablo]

Daily Wail. Who's paying them?

 

[gordonthemoron]

personally I'd open HS2 to Old Oak Common before tackling Euston, to relieve the congestion, but realistically HS2 is the least worst option.

 

[edwin_m]

personally I'd open HS2 to Old Oak Common before tackling Euston, to relieve the congestion, but realistically HS2 is the least worst option.

OOC won't have anywhere near enough platforms to turn back the Phase 1 service that will be arriving there from the north. It can only function if the trains continue through to Euston or somewhere else.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I'm sure OOC will have to turn back trains in future if Euston is closed, or would they shut the entire HS2?

 

[edwin_m]

I'm sure OOC will have to turn back trains in future if Euston is closed, or would they shut the entire HS2?

Quite possible, but then they would turn everyone off and send the train straight out again without any servicing and with no standing time to recover from delays. Even so a queue of trains would probably build up on the apporach, until they can start to be turned back further north.

 

[Nym]

Quite possible, but then they would turn everyone off and send the train straight out again without any servicing and with no standing time to recover from delays. Even so a queue of trains would probably build up on the apporach, until they can start to be turned back further north.

The centre two (International) platfoms should support terminating services from what I have seen of the detailed design.

 

[SS4]

I see they also declined to link us to said dossier

 

[MidlandMainlie]

While it is probably twisted out of all proportion disruption at Euston is a valid question. It's probably the most significant place where HS2 impacts on the existing network.

In an ideal world a link from Crossrail to the WCML would be built first, so that the shorter distance LM services could be diverted to free up some capacity.

I wouldn't be surprised if David Higgins recommends doing just that in his report on HS2 later this month
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't think The Mail has taken a consistent anti-HS2 line so far editorially, but here perhaps it's taking a more familiar position - it does love a 'chaos on the railways' story.

They have a a few pro HS2 articles in the past, not like the Telegraph and a certain journalist who happened to live close to the proposed route writes a lot of anti HS2 articles

 

[jon0844]

How much chaos to train punctuality did other mainline terminal upgrades cause? Going back to Liverpool Street and then on to current day, like KGX, STP, PAD and so on?

Yes, some confusion for passengers navigating temporary routes etc, but did nearly 50% of trains run late? I used King's Cross daily through the construction work and don't recall any major problems.

Is the HS2 work going to be massively disruptive in comparison?

 

[joeykins82]

If the Tring stoppers and MKC semi-fasts are diverted to Crossrail, and LO Watford Jcn sent to Camden Road then that presumably will take some of the pressure off the platform capacity during the rebuild project

 

[Geezertronic]

How much chaos to train punctuality did other mainline terminal upgrades cause? Going back to Liverpool Street and then on to current day, like KGX, STP, PAD and so on?

Yes, some confusion for passengers navigating temporary routes etc, but did nearly 50% of trains run late? I used King's Cross daily through the construction work and don't recall any major problems.

Is the HS2 work going to be massively disruptive in comparison?

The same could be said for the Birmingham New Street rebuild. While it is a PITA in the short term, it "should" be better in the long term.

 

[83G/84D]

The boss of Britain's new high-speed rail line has admitted the South West will not benefit directly from the £50 billion project as it emerged the region stands not even to get the hand-me-down trains.
Against growing anxiety on the peninsula over losing out over the proposed High Speed 2 (HS2) line connecting London to Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds, its chairman Sir David Higgins told MPs: "It won't directly benefit the far South West at all because this scheme can't do everything."
The admission to the Commons Transport Select Committee came as Westcountry MP Adrian Sanders, who serves on the cross-party committee, told him it would be "nonsense" at present to suggest Devon and Cornwall could get displaced trains freed up by the new 250mph versions flying north.
All bar a handful of the East and West Coast mainline trains run on electric wires – useless on the Great Western line into Devon and Cornwall where only diesels can travel on non-electrified tracks.
Mr Sanders, MP for Torbay, is among of growing band of MPs from the South West demanding an upgrade to the region's rail network in return for their vote in the Commons supporting HS2.
The parlous state of the service has been writ large by recent storms that destroyed the Great Western line at Dawlish, and flooded repeatedly east of Exeter.
During the probe, Mr Sanders said a Government-commissioned report by accountants KPMG showing Devon and Cornwall's economy could be hit by £140 million by HS2 underlined the region's case.
He said: "You can't expect every area to benefit. But it certainly shouldn't be the case that any part of the country actually loses."
Sir David replied:"I found that staggering. I couldn't understands why building a railway north of London – so far way from Devon and Cornwall – was actually going to deteriorate on the economy of Devon. So I don't actually understand how they worked that out."
Mr Sanders went on to suggest even indirect benefits would be marginal.
The Liberal Democrat said: "Even if you tried to sell it to the people of the far South West that they would benefit from rolling stock that might be freed up from the East and West Coast mainlines, that's complete nonsense anyway because we don't have an electrified railway to use the electrified trains that would be handed down to us.
"How are you going to sell this to areas of the country – MPs like myself – to vote for this Bill when actually you'll be voting to disadvantage our constituents and our local economies."
The Great Western line is already to be electrified to Bristol, but most trains to west Somerset, Devon and Cornwall run on the "second" line which has only been upgraded to Newbury in Berkshire.
Sir David said the "entire debate is about fairness," arguing the justification for investment from the north stemmed from 50% of rail expenditure being pumped into London, and pointed to the second-hand trains "the north has to put up with".
But Mr Sanders said the South West was "actually below the north", adding: "The South West has just taken the hand-me-downs from Northern Rail.
"According to your report, the expenditure per head is far less in the South West than anywhere else. And that 'South West' includes the northern bit that will be having the investment in electrification to Bristol. The far South West will fall further behind."


Read more: http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk...tory-20850329-detail/story.html#ixzz2x5y3FCFn

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Why doesn't Adrian Sanders try lobbying the government to order an extra batch of IEP's to replace HST's on services to the southwest :roll:

 

[YorkshireBear]

A line to Leeds and Manchester won't directly benefit the South West? Well spank my asse and call me Judy.

 

[jon0844]

It's amazing isn't it, Judy.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

 

[JohnB57]

Well spank my asse and call me Judy.

Two questions.

What has your donkey done to deserve it?

And how would Richard feel about it..?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Two questions.

What has your donkey done to deserve it?

And how would Richard feel about it..?

Haha, I never remember the proper spelling i don't write it very often!

You never know with Richard.

 

[philjo]

There was a daft letter in the Daily Telegraph a couple of weeks ago suggesting that a tunnel to/rebuild of Euston wasn't needed for HS2 as long platforms were already available at St pancras & City Thameslink !
Not sure why he thinks that those locations are vacant!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/10793778/Opposing-the-HS2-rail-project-does-not-make-you-a-relentless-Luddite.html

SIR – The present plans for HS2 at its London end are unpopular and unrealistically expensive. We don’t need a four-mile tunnel to Euston. Nor do we need to build more long platforms for high-speed trains when we already have them at St Pancras, City Thameslink and Waterloo.

We should reuse our vacant routes, sites and buildings before squandering huge amounts of money on an ill-thought-out project, which will cause disruption, inconvenience and unnecessary cost to thousands of passengers for many

years.

Paul Stancliffe
Thame, Oxfordshire

 

[jon0844]

City Thameslink? Erm. Not even sure how to respond to that.

To someone with no clue, I could understand possibly assuming St Pancras might be an option, without realising that the platforms are all used - and many are of course reserved for Eurostar - the long platforms he was obviously thinking of.

Waterlook - again, plausible.

But City Thameslink? It's not even a terminus! Seriously, this is the most ridiculous suggestion ever. And I bet Mr Stancliffe got people supporting and agreeing with him!

 

[philjo]

Quite.
not sure how that would even attempt to fit into the planned 24 tph on the Thameslink core !!!!!!
Also the platforms would NOT be long enough - 12 car 319 units are 240m.
the HS2 trains would be 400m long (when operating as double units)

 

[higthomas]

SIR – The present plans for HS2 at its London end are unpopular and unrealistically expensive. We don’t need a four-mile tunnel to Euston. Nor do we need to build more long platforms for high-speed trains when we already have them at St Pancras, City Thameslink and Waterloo.

We should reuse our vacant routes, sites and buildings before squandering huge amounts of money on an ill-thought-out project, which will cause disruption, inconvenience and unnecessary cost to thousands of passengers for many

years.

Paul Stancliffe
Thame, Oxfordshire

Wow, just wow.
The anti-HS2 crowd get more and more barmy every day.

 

[digitaltoast]

Even "The Left" appear to be turning against this megalomaniac fantasy project now...

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...igh-speed-rail-quack-remedies-modern-politics

These mega-projects are the quack remedies of modern politics

As soon as one is mooted it attracts lobbyists – and Labour's Lord Adonis – like moths to a light. The Treasury, once a stern judge of such projects, has become their uncritical lapdog. It builds Crossrail 1 rather than the more sensible Crossrail 2; HS2 rather than the more sensible east coast route from the north to HS1; it subsidises trains where coaches are more affordable; and it backs garden cities that increase commuting pressure instead of urban renewal; and it supports two universities in every city where one would do.

A new high-speed railway across the Pennines would apparently cost £7bn, roughly what Osborne wanted to spend getting his HS2 in London from Wormwood Scrubs to St Pancras. The St Pancras part of this link, to HS1, has now been abandoned. This means the government is proposing two high-speed lines, neither of which will run through to the continental high-speed network – transport planning at its daftest.

...and so on. And the majority of the comments don't seem sympathetic to the cause, either.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Even "The Left" appear to be turning against this megalomaniac fantasy project now...

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...igh-speed-rail-quack-remedies-modern-politics



...and so on. And the majority of the comments don't seem sympathetic to the cause, either.

These are the same people who were bashing HS2 for not fixing east-west links between the cities of the north. They can be safely ignored as their contribution to this debate is negligible.

 

[jon0844]

Far too many agendas.

History will look back favourably on HS1, the channel tunnel, Crossrail, Thameslink (well, maybe in 20-30 years it will force a rethink on just two tracks through 'the core'), and HS2, HS3 etc.

We'll all continue to laugh at how it took so long for all of them to happen, but realise that common sense prevailed in the end.

Unless we're seriously thinking people will want to travel less in the future, or we'll find a way to reduce the population so demand will be lower.

 

[MarkyT]

Simon Jenkins in the Guardian article seems biased against railway improvements unless it's 'commuter' and more concerned with the state of transpennine motorways. I think he might be a bit of petrolhead from some of his comments. He seems unable to grasp the concept that a shift of passengers to a more attractive rail service could improve matters on the roads, at least give a bit of breathing space to do a bit more maintenance and capacity work on the northern motorways.

. . . New railways have become a totem of "caring infrastructure", despite the fact that a mere 3% of journeys in Britain are made by rail. The lines most in need of new capacity are commuter ones. As for the north, there are two trans-Pennine routes from Manchester to Leeds, both in need of upgrading. That it should take an hour and a half to get by train from Liverpool to Leeds and three hours to Hull is absurd.

"That doesn't mean a new "high-speed train". The real Pennine lifeline is the M62, and its congested state is a disgrace. It makes even the M1 and M4 look like Silverstone on race day. The A roads along the Aire and Calder valleys are equally desperate. No one can do business when gridlocked. When the transport secretary, Patrick McLoughlin, talks of the west coast line being "near capacity", he should try the north's roads . . ."

There's no reason to think an improved HS service need use a new route throughout and although any new base tunnel, fast cut-off or bypass could be built to European clearances a new tier of true transpennine express services could use a 'classic compatible' fleet to gain access to existing city approaches and termini, as well as use any existing sections between where higher speed might be possible.

 

[Chris125]

IIRC Simon Jenkins has previously suggested we'd be better off transporting people by coach rather than rail, which tells you all you need to know...

Chris

 

[Snapper]

As usual, the anti Hs2 mob's hypocrisy knows no bounds. You may have seen media reports that David Higgins is requesting he be allowed to pay 20-30 staff members a salary greater than the PMs (£140k).

Needless to say this has worked the anti up into a frenzy, with the usual accusationsof the 'gravy train'

One classic bit of hypocrisy is the Leader of the 51M groups of Councils (Martin Tett) joining in. What he fails to mention is that his own Council (Bucks CC) pays its Chief Executive £209k and 3 other Officers also earn more than the PM. In fact, several 51M councils pay a number of Officers far more than the PM...

Needless to say, there's total silence from StopHs2 & Joe Rukin about this. It seems what's not OK for Hs2 Ltd is fine for 51M.