HS2 in the press

[quantinghome]

Haven't they decided that yet? How do you replace slab track and high speed points in the space of 5 hours? Does anyone know how long slab track lasts with 18 tph at 400kph? Possibly not, as no-one has tried it. The M42 and the M1 are still settling on the bits constucted over old mineworkings etc. Presumably the cost of HS2 includes everything necessary to ensure that it will not settle at all.

Slab track has been around for some time so I would guess maintenance and renewal issues are well-understood. According to a quick google, slab track life span is around 60 years, so renewal would be pretty infrequent compared to the operations required to renew ballasted track. I disagree that 'no one knows how long slab track lasts with 18 tph at 400kph'. The long term behaviour of reinforced concrete is well-understood science both in terms of chemical and dynamic fatigue effects. The design could be adequately assessed for life span using structural design codes. I would imagine that HS2 are supplementing this with extensive case studies of existing high speed slab track and possibly laboratory testing of the proprietary slab systems available.

You are right that the settlement tolerances for HS2 will be significant tighter than for motorways (although you can never get zero settlement). Again, this is a well understood phenomenon for which engineering solutions are readily available. For example, HS1 crosses the Rainham marshes on a piled track bed, effectively a viaduct at ground level. HS2 are looking to minimise ground movement in line with their aim to design out as much maintenance requirement as possible.

 

[Trog]

You "believe" they will be far enough apart but I have yet to see anything that suggests that this is part of the design or that the safety bodies have agreed that people can work on one track while the other is in use. Even if this is possible, the capacity will be very greatly reduced because of the problems of operating trains at high speeds with long braking distances and slow acceleration. When are these quieter times you mention?

Checking HS2's documentation suggests a typical centre line separation of 5m this gives a space between tracks of about twice that of a classic twin track railway. While there is 5 hours a night 8 on Sunday booked for HS2's maintenance, I see no reason why some works should not be done either side of this as the service ramps up and down from the no trains period, with one line open and the other closed. Particularly things like tamping that can be largely done from within a vehicle on the closed line. If this is a planned occurrence the few trains that pass during these periods could have an allowance made in their timetabling if required for a somewhat reduced speed past the site of work and for the crossover moves.

I said believe because I had not double checked when I wrote my post rather than just stating what I believed as fact like yourself. For example "the problems of operating trains at high speeds with long braking distances and slow acceleration", which will not be a problem in this case as HS2 is to be fitted with 142MPH crossovers.

 

[The Ham]

I said believe because I had not double checked when I wrote my post rather than just stating what I believed as fact like yourself. For example "the problems of operating trains at high speeds with long braking distances and slow acceleration", which will not be a problem in this case as HS2 is to be fitted with 142MPH crossovers.

Even if trains had to pass works on the other track at a much reduced speed (say 20mph) that is still going to be a whole load quicker to slow down to that and then get back up to full speed than it is to run at 125mph the whole way on the WCML unless the length of the works was very significant.

However, that is all rather academic as it would be at least ten times faster to use the WCML at 125mph then to use busses, or to run passengers up HS2 and back down the WCML to where they need to get to than use busses. That's the point that those opposed to HS2 keep failing to get (along with capacity) is that by building HS2 you have more options when there are engineering blockades than you have at present, the majority of which will be of a similar journey time than at present.

As an example the stated journey time from London to Birmingham on HS2 is about 50 minutes, add in 20 minutes to get from Birmingham to Coventry and you are looking at about 70 minutes that's not too different from the current 65 minutes that it takes. As such after HS2 when there is maintenance to the WCML the delay to passengers to Coventry could be measured in single digit or low double digit delays rather than say 30 minutes to an hour of delays.

 

[HSTEd]

Haven't they decided that yet? How do you replace slab track and high speed points in the space of 5 hours? Does anyone know how long slab track lasts with 18 tph at 400kph?

We know how long it lasts at 10tph+ at 320kph, and the answer is a very long time (see Japan and high speed rail). Unless something peculiar happens the slab track would last 20-30 years.
And I have no evidence that trains will be running at higher than 320kph a significant amount of time on HS2.

 

[Voglitz]

Even if trains had to pass works on the other track at a much reduced speed (say 20mph) that is still going to be a whole load quicker to slow down to that and then get back up to full speed than it is to run at 125mph the whole way on the WCML unless the length of the works was very significant.

However, that is all rather academic as it would be at least ten times faster to use the WCML at 125mph then to use busses, or to run passengers up HS2 and back down the WCML to where they need to get to than use busses.

"At least ten times faster?" I don't think so.

But it is all rather academic, because single line working is very unlikely to be a practical proposition.

That's the point that those opposed to HS2 keep failing to get (along with capacity) is that by building HS2 you have more options when there are engineering blockades than you have at present, the majority of which will be of a similar journey time than at present.

Spending £18 billion to "have more options when there are engineering blockades than you have at present", is probably not a good use of public money, when blockades are infrequent, and there are several existing options, such as running trains on the Chiltern line via Willesden.

As an example the stated journey time from London to Birmingham on HS2 is about 50 minutes, add in 20 minutes to get from Birmingham to Coventry and you are looking at about 70 minutes that's not too different from the current 65 minutes that it takes. As such after HS2 when there is maintenance to the WCML the delay to passengers to Coventry could be measured in single digit or low double digit delays rather than say 30 minutes to an hour of delays.

This is nonsense. There are no plans for trains from HS2 Curzon Street to Coventry, leaving 1 minute after a London arrival. Or any number of minutes after a London arrival.

 

[JamesT]

This is nonsense. There are no plans for trains from HS2 Curzon Street to Coventry, leaving 1 minute after a London arrival. Or any number of minutes after a London arrival.

But HS2 will be stopping at Birmingham Interchange, which is effectively an extension of International, where you can catch a train to Coventry.

Or you go into Curzon Street and take the proposed People Mover to New Street where you can again catch a train to Coventry.

 

[Voglitz]

But HS2 will be stopping at Birmingham Interchange,

Mostly not stopping at Birmingham Interchange.

which is effectively an extension of International, where you can catch a train to Coventry.

"Effectively an extension of International"? The sites are nearly a mile apart.

Or you go into Curzon Street and take the proposed People Mover to New Street where you can again catch a train to Coventry.

Curzon Street people mover?

 

[NSEFAN]

But it is all rather academic, because single line working is very unlikely to be a practical proposition.

Why? If the railway can be designed for safer working from the outset (such as tracks that are further apart), then why not take advantage of this? Not having to bustitute services to do routine maintenance would be a massive advantage.

 

[dviner]

Please explain...

If you hadn't noticed, what I wrote was a summary of some of the extensive commentary provided on this and other threads (admittedly from the pro-HS2 viewpoint). I don't claim any authority on the subject.

Please explain what you mean by 'comparatively negligible'

It's expensive to build a railway line from scratch. However, when you're building from scratch a significant proportion of the cost will be the same whatever the planned max speed is.

what speeds you are comparing

103mph and 107.25mph. In actuality, I was making a general comparison.

and explain why HS2 is so expensive if it is negligible.

It is expensive for many reasons - one of the biggest is that it's being built in the UK.

It will be far more difficult and expensive to maintain HS2 than conventional lines

Please explain why it would be far more difficult and expensive to maintain. Is it going to be specifically designed to be difficult to maintain? Will it use bespoke, hand-crafted, track fixings and made-to-measure point machines with no interchangeable parts?

Where is this pot of cash coming from?

B*gg*r*d if I know.

 

[JamesT]

Mostly not stopping at Birmingham Interchange.

The proposed service patterns, especially when phase 2 kicks in look like they have a pretty decent proportion stopping at Interchange. At worst it looks like 3 trains an hour.

"Effectively an extension of International"? The sites are nearly a mile apart.

And will have a "rapid people mover" between Interchange, NEC, Airport, and International. The existing station gives a model with Airlink taking 90seconds to get you to airport. You can spend longer than that walking around many rail stations.

Curzon Street people mover?

Could be that. Or an extension of the tram system to connect the city centre stations, already underway. Moving walkways have been proposed. In the grand scheme of things, they're not so far apart. If the alternative is a RRB, many people would be happy to do the change.

 

[The Ham]

Mostly not stopping at Birmingham Interchange.

Mostly not currently stopping at Coventry!

 

[deltic]

Mostly not stopping at Birmingham Interchange.

Phase 1 assumes 3 tph and Phase 2 5tph calling at Birmingham Interchange

 

[The Planner]

Did they go through the petitioning process of the hybrid bill and what was the outcome? Can you direct us to when it was so we can read the details?

Still would be interested in how the petition went for the people you represented Willsmadeit.

 

[33Hz]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/33928...-speed-rail-network-to-save-money-for-brexit/

FAST RAIL AXE FOR BREXIT Tory MPs want to put halt to £100billion HS2 high-speed rail network to save money for Brexit

Likely or wishful thinking by the usual suspects?

 

[J-2739]

It's too late for that. They'll have to continue, even if construction is delayed once again.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/33928...-speed-rail-network-to-save-money-for-brexit/



Likely or wishful thinking by the usual suspects?

Wishful thinking from the usual suspects clutching at straws, if Theresa May wanted to stop HS2 she would have done so when she became PM, before the Phase 1 bill got royal assent. Why on Earth would she want to stop the project now that the main construction contracts have been let and how many millions of pounds would it cost in compensation to those companies that have bid and won those contracts if the construction of HS2 is delayed or cancelled?

Also HS2 is not an election issue, it did negligible damage to the Conservatives in 2015, and won't be an issue this time as the UKIP vote (who stood on an anti-HS2 platform) is collapsing back to the Tories post Brexit referendum so what is there to gain?

Edit:-.Another thought, biding for the train contracts has started, with Brexit HS2 is a huge opportunity to boost British manufacturing so how would cancelling HS2 look in seats like the ultra marginal Derby North where the Tory MP has a lead of only 71 votes over Labour and other battleground constituencies like Birmingham Edgebaston which is on the Tories hit list as Gisela Stewart is standing down from Labour.

 

[Snapper]

It's the usual spin from the usual suspects. I've looked at it and blogged about it here. https://paulbigland.blog/2017/04/24/the-weekends-hs2-media-froth-explained/

 

[33Hz]

The gist of the Sun's article is that everything is going to get more expensive (possibly true if they are buying European kit) and that Brexit means we will not have the money to do it.

Hang on - wasn't the Sun a Brexit-supporting paper?

 

[jon0844]

It's okay though. Despite years of austerity, which everyone was quite rightly upset about, when it comes to future problems related to Brexit, it will be fine as it's worth it to get our country back.

 

[33Hz]

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ster-news/is-hs2-rail-being-scrapped-12933964

The Conservatives have refused to deny reports Theresa May plans to shelve HS2 to pay for Brexit.

...

When the M.E.N. asked the Tory party to comment on a report the Prime Minister had been persuaded to cancel HS2, their spokeswoman refused to deny the claim.

She said in a statement: “We will of course publish our programme for Government during the campaign. In these first days we will keep on reminding people that there is a very clear choice at this election – strong and stable leadership in the national interest with Theresa May or a weak and unstable coalition government led by Jeremy Corbyn.”

Also with Osborne out it loses one of its main backers.

 

[Chris125]

Also with Osborne out it loses one of its main backers.

He's been all but irrelevant since Theresa May became PM, if she had any intention of cancelling HS2 she'd have done it already.

There is zero prospect of the government cancelling such a significant flagship infrastructure at the very time Brexit uncertainty could start to bite, with the construction sector particularly vulnerable. - if anything more infrastructure spending could be on the cards if an economic stimulus is required.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

He's been all but irrelevant since Theresa May became PM, if she had any intention of cancelling HS2 she'd have done it already.

There is zero prospect of the government cancelling such a significant flagship infrastructure at the very time Brexit uncertainty could start to bite, with the construction sector particularly vulnerable. - if anything more infrastructure spending could be on the cards if an economic stimulus is required.

Agreed, another factor is the two high speed rail collages in Birmingham and Doncaster are training hundreds of young people to work on HS2. How embarrassing would it look for the government when those young people start to graduate and leave the U.K. after thousands of pounds of tax payers money has been spent training them because there is no HS2 for them to work on, particularly if they go to the EU to work on high speed rail projects.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Looks like the rumours of HS2 demise have been greatly exaggerated

Transport Minister dismisses HS2 'cancelled'
Andrew Jones has rejected suggestions the planned high speed rail line to Yorkshire could be cancelled after the General Election.

The Harrogate MP promised there would be no back-tracking on the Conservatives' commitment to delivering HS2 when the party publishes its manifesto. Weekend reports suggested Theresa May was coming under pressure from Conservative MPs in the South to use the election as a moment to delay or even cancel the project.

Delivering HS2 was one of the Conservatives' key pledges to Yorkshire in 2015 with David Cameron suggesting the stretch between Leeds and Sheffield could be built early. Mr Jones told The Yorkshire Post; “HS2 is going ahead. Construction will be underway shortly, and that will be an important moment in our transport history. "The government is committed to it. Suggestions to the contrary are incorrect.”

Read more at: http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/transport-minister-dismisses-hs2-cancelled-speculation-1-8509129

 

[spargazer]

I have done a quick calculation and the tunnel under south Manchester will generate millions of tons of spoil,

the tunnel is 9km long with two bores 7.10m (Crossrail) diameter. which is about 11,400,000 cubic metres.

where is it all going to go?

It is probably cheaper that all those CPOs, road diversions, compensation payments and the litigation involved if overground..

 

[gordonthemoron]

surely Brexit makes HS2 even more likely?

 

[edwin_m]

I have done a quick calculation and the tunnel under south Manchester will generate millions of tons of spoil,

the tunnel is 9km long with two bores 7.10m (Crossrail) diameter. which is about 11,400,000 cubic metres.

where is it all going to go?

It is probably cheaper that all those CPOs, road diversions, compensation payments and the litigation involved if overground..

Crossrail reclaimed some land in the Thames estuary to create a new nature reserve. I'm sure something similar can be thought up for HS2, for what isn't needed to build embankments elsewhere on the route.

 

[snowball]

I think you may have made an arithmetical mistake. I get less than 713,000 cu m.

 

[The Planner]

There are enough holes in the ground around the UK where all that can be dumped. They need to do it for Phase 1 so 2 shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Snapper]

New blog detailing how the StopHs2 campaign have made complete fools of themselves in the past couple of days with claims the Tories would include cancelling Hs2 in their election manifesto

https://paulbigland.blog/2017/04/29/theres-deluded-then-theres-joe-rukin/

 

[Chris125]

Here endeth the speculation: May promises to deliver HS2 to Yorkshire

THERESA MAY has slapped down Conservative backbenchers in the South with a commitment to deliver the HS2 rail line to Yorkshire.

The Prime Minister told The Yorkshire Post the proposed high speed rail line connnecting London, Birmingham and Yorkshire is “very important” for the country.

Mrs May has come under pressure from some of her own backbenchers, who see no benefit from HS2 for their consituencies, to use the Conservative General Election manifesto to delay or even cancel the project.

The Prime Minister said: “We remain absolutely committed to HS2. It is a very important infrastructure project for the country. It is important that we increase capacity on this mainline and I believe that HS2 is the right way to do that.