HS2: man stands to lose his life's work

[Altfish]

It always makes me laugh how the railway fans just don't seem to give a flying stuff over emotions. Suicides, those about to be turfed out of homes and land that has been in families for generations.
The school I teach in is part of a community whereby the railway will come through. As a result, historic woodlands in the area have been felled (shame we don't have a Conservative MP who likes to go walking in the area), there are families and familial histories about to be destroyed. Yes, money buys you a house. Yes, 85% of my students come from wealthy backgrounds, but that doesn't compare at all to the emotional attachment people have to their homes. It isn't just a building. It isn't a lump sum to buy another building with. It's their home. A home that's likely seen families through huge struggles, but also through happy times. "Oh well, they'll get more money to buy another home with" - can't say I expected anymore from the members of the forum to be honest.

So what is your solution? Not just with HS2, but with any large infrastructure project be it rail or road or reservoir. Do we cancel them all because an individual's house is in the way? When we built some of our reservoirs whole villages were lost.
Unfortunately, the greater good of the country has to come before the feelings of an individual.

 

[najaB]

Nobody else will be able to afford to use HS2 you see.

Ah, right. I get it now.

 

[Ianno87]

Even from London to Birmingham, it's only going to be MPs and bankers paying their £1000 ticket prices (HS2 is going to be super expensive, remember) on expenses, of course, to just save a few minutes.

Nobody else will be able to afford to use HS2 you see.

Cite source for those fares, please? There has been no official announcement.

I can't see why HS2 fares wouldn't be fundamentally any different to those already charged on the Pendolinos they replace, i.e. costly in the peak (to "tax" business travel), but cheap Advances to fill capacity off-peak. No difference to today.

 

[najaB]

Cite source for those fares, please? There has been no official announcement

I suspect that was a satirical take on our anti-HS2 poster's typical contribution.

To be fair, it took me a moment or two to realise.

 

[D365]

Investment can be made without demolition of innocent people's homes and you know that's true.

So are all these developments meant to zigzag around any property where the owner objects?

[Photo of a famous "nail house" in Shanghai blocking a road intersection - demolished in 2017]

 

[6Gman]

Name a single realistic railway project which could do all of that. I'm really interested in what suggestions you have.

HS5 will run from Norwich via Leeds to Edinburgh, then via Aberdeen, Inverness, Kyle - train ferry to Mallaig then via Glasgow and the Isle of Man to Llandudno then as a direct route to Cardiff (lots of tunnels).

PR1Berske still won't be happy.

"No benefit to Yeovil"

 

[Ianno87]

I suspect that was a satirical take on our anti-HS2 poster's typical contribution.

To be fair, it took me a moment or two to realise.

D'oh!

Sarcasm is lost on me at that time on a Sunday morning

 

[Harbornite]

HS2 is currently planned to only link Birmingham with London. It does not benefit millions of people as you claim. It does not benefit people in Norwich (it's not designed to go there). It does not benefit people in Leeds (it's not yet confirmed to go there). It's not designed to benefit the entirety of Scotland. Or Wales.

Your post is written on the assumption that HS2 is a national project. It's not. It connects London with Birmingham. And that's it.

Does that meet the cost of an innocent man's home? No.

I agree. It's like with the GMWL electrification project, it's a waste of money because it doesn't serve Thurso, and the EGIP project was also a waste of money because it doesn't serve Tywyn. and the M5 shouldn't have been built because it doesn't serve Liskeard or Mallaig.

 

[Bayum]

So what is your solution? Not just with HS2, but with any large infrastructure project be it rail or road or reservoir. Do we cancel them all because an individual's house is in the way? When we built some of our reservoirs whole villages were lost.
Unfortunately, the greater good of the country has to come before the feelings of an individual.

The track curves into the village, If they kept the curve moving they would bypass the village by half a mile or so?

 

[Altfish]

The track curves into the village, If they kept the curve moving they would bypass the village by half a mile or so?

OK, that solves that one but what about the rest of the objectors who you have now set a precedent for?
I don't doubt your revised route will now go through some other location that was 'a lifetimes work'.

 

[The Planner]

The track curves into the village, If they kept the curve moving they would bypass the village by half a mile or so?

The other issue with that is with a high speed line, you tend to alter the trace by several miles by making small alterations.

 

[Dave_Cardboard]

I do feel for the people who have to move out of properties that are in the way of such developments, and I believe that simply paying "fair market value" for a property is insufficient. Perhaps a premium should be paid on top to recognise the effort that the occupiers have put into making their houses a home over the years, but it shouldn't impede major developments that will ultimately benefit a far larger amount of people.

They did - for example, under the "Express Purchase" scheme it was something like "fair market value + 10% (subject to some limits) + reasonable moving costs." There were some other offerings under alternate schemes such as "Need To Sell" and "Homeowner Payment" and "Voluntary Purchase" with various eligibility criteria and compensation offering. Details on the HS2 web site.

To speak to the contrary point of view, there are those that argue (essentially) "it's all well and good giving us the money to go somewhere else, but what if we cannot find anywhere?" There was a case in the press of some families in a street in Birmingham saying (I paraphrase) "there just aren't any houses for sale around here - we may have the money, but there's nothing available to buy."

 

[keith1879]

There are, and I agree with that wholeheartedly. However, I do recognise and bear the thought that at one point when I first joined the site, if there ever were suicides on the railway, the absolute disgrace and contempt that people on the forum showed of the person was quite disturbing.

I have to agree with that - something which always troubles me - and I think it is still the case to some extent.

Nevertheless the subject of this thread is basically the interest of one person against the interests of many - I don't think that empathy is appropriate - it's more a need to be objective.

 

[najaB]

I don't think that empathy is appropriate - it's more a need to be objective.

Empathy is appropriate - empathy is just "I get why this is upsetting to the person affected." - but a weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth isn't.

 

[whhistle]

I completely disagree with this attitude. This is the man's home, his life, his memories, his only place to live. Surely you can see the other side of the argument, that this man has the right to live in his own gone while HS2 has no such comparable importance?

The fact is though, it is progress.

I fail to see, despite it not being right, how HS2 can be a bad thing.

Would be better to make HS2 a brand new railway:

• Up to 300mph capable, at least.
• Get rid of this classic compatible rubbish.
• Double deck.
• Wider gauge (not sure if this would bring stability benefits?).

Of course, our government isn't treating it like that and is missing a trick with it. BUt at least it'll be something.

Surely you can see that? Your *home* verses a railway line, and you choose the railway?

If they paid me a little above market value for it so I could buy a nicer home elsewhere, and pay all associated costs (so not unreasonable really!), yeah, I'd move!
I live opposite an old guy who gave the council his house.
They gave him a bungalow and auctioned the house. Win-win for everyone but he was happy to move on.

Even from London to Birmingham, it's only going to be MPs and bankers paying their £1000 ticket prices (HS2 is going to be super expensive, remember) on expenses, of course, to just save a few minutes.
Nobody else will be able to afford to use HS2 you see.

Please point to where you have seen this fact?
I guess you've seen the pricing structure?
The easiest guide we can use is HS1. Do people use HS1? Yes. Is it "fairly well" used? Yes. So you can bet HS2 will be too.
And it's not just "a few minutes" - which is 3 (single = 1, a couple = 2, a few = 3).
It's a shame they're not closing the MML and building HS2 in it's place with spurs to Birmingham.
Nearly all stations on the MML are close to the East or West coast lines, or trains could get to those lines fairly easily.

 

[Altfish]

The fact is though, it is progress.

I fail to see, despite it not being right, how HS2 can be a bad thing.

Would be better to make HS2 a brand new railway:

• Up to 300mph capable, at least.
• Get rid of this classic compatible rubbish.
• Double deck.
• Wider gauge (not sure if this would bring stability benefits?).

Of course, our government isn't treating it like that and is missing a trick with it. BUt at least it'll be something.

Problem with many of those suggestions is that it will not be compatible with HS1. Which in the medium term it will surely link to.

 

[najaB]

Wider gauge (not sure if this would bring stability benefits?).

Do you mean track gauge?

 

[chorleyjeff]

I completely disagree with this attitude. This is the man's home, his life, his memories, his only place to live. Surely you can see the other side of the argument, that this man has the right to live in his own gone while HS2 has no such comparable importance?

His right to live there has been removed by Act of Parliament.
Just like when I valued hundreds of slum clearance houses in Preston for compulsory purchase in the 1960s.
It is for the benefit of the country but individuals concerned get the value + for the property acquired.

 

[whitrope69]

With any infrastructure project there are always the losers. It's a bit sad, but it's one of those things.

Its one of those things until it affects you or me I guess

 

[whhistle]

Problem with many of those suggestions is that it will not be compatible with HS1. Which in the medium term it will surely link to.

And that's where we're sort of going wrong.
Always thinking backwards compatible (and thus being held back to be compatible) instead of thinking brand new.

Do you mean track gauge?

Yeah.
For some reason, I have it in my head that if the tracks were wider apart and line-side equipment/platforms were further away from the tracks, it would create a less juddery/more stable ride.

 

[backontrack]

I agree. It's like with the GMWL electrification project, it's a waste of money because it doesn't serve Thurso, and the EGIP project was also a waste of money because it doesn't serve Tywyn. and the M5 shouldn't have been built because it doesn't serve Liskeard or Mallaig.

Meh, @6Gman was much funnier when he did it.

In all seriousness though, that is a distinctly straw-mannish argument that you are making. There should be a benefit to the North if the latter stages do go ahead as scheduled (let's hope that it won't just be asset-stripping); for example, travel should become much easier and quicker from Yorkshire to the East Midlands and Birmingham.

However, it is important to note that maybe, just maybe, HS2 isn't doing enough for those areas. The erstwhile UK Ultraspeed, for example, suggested a Maglev network from London to Glasgow. I think that there is a very strong argument in favour of ditching all this 'classic compatible' rubbish and building some actual high speed railways north of Manchester and Leeds too.*

*but more importantly then that...build one between them!

 

[whitrope69]

His right to live there has been removed by Act of Parliament.
Just like when I valued hundreds of slum clearance houses in Preston for compulsory purchase in the 1960s.
It is for the benefit of the country but individuals concerned get the value + for the property acquired.

I am far from convinced HS2 is for the benefit of anyone but the LSE business community

 

[Domh245]

Yeah.
For some reason, I have it in my head that if the tracks were wider apart and line-side equipment/platforms were further away from the tracks, it would create a less juddery/more stable ride.

It's still not entirely clear what exactly you are referring to. Do you mean track gauge - the distance between the two rails of any track (1435mm) or the loading gauge, which is the distance between any given track and the surrounding infrastructure. If you do mean the track gauge, then whilst making it wider would improve the stability of the trains, you would lose the ability to run through trains beyond HS2, utilise common rolling stock (eg you'd have to have separate, dedicated maintenance vehicles rather than just using generic Network Rail ones) etc - it really isn't worth the hassle given that standard gauge is able to give pretty good stability at high speeds anyway. If you mean loading gauge (which your post seems to imply) then it is being built to a larger loading gauge than the rest of the UK anyway.

 

[najaB]

For some reason, I have it in my head that and line-side equipment/platforms were further away from the tracks, it would create a less juddery/more stable ride.

A wider track gauge (which is what I assume you mean by "if the tracks were wider apart" would have little impact on stability, but would make the trains significantly more expensive (since we would have to have everything custom built) and mean zero-chance of any through-running to destinations not on HS2. So a huge loss for very little gain.

 

[quantinghome]

Would be better to make HS2 a brand new railway

It is a brand new railway.

Up to 300mph capable, at least.

Why would you need to go up to 300mph? Can you actually find an alignment that could work at that speed - minimum track radius is proportional to the square of the linespeed. You would need novel braking technology and significant groundworks to avoid hitting critical velocity in the underlying soil. Power requirements would be significantly higher. And what time advantage would this actually give, considering most of the time would be taken in accelerating and braking? I can see it working in, say, China but the UK doesn't need to go this fast.

• Get rid of this classic compatible rubbish.

• Wider gauge (not sure if this would bring stability benefits?).

Why would you want to stop destinations off the high speed line benefitting from it? As it stands trains to and from the North and Scotland will benefit from HS1 as soon as the first section opens.

Double Deck

The HS2 structure loading gauge will be big enough for double deck.

 

[route:oxford]

Bloke buys ex-council house
Tarts it up
Receives an offer he cannot refuse.

Sounds pretty much like a standard episode of "Homes Under the Hammer".

 

[Nonsense]

Good morning everyone!

Here is our publication: HS2: What Is It and How Could It Be Improved?

https://medium.com/hs2-what-is-it-and-how-it-could-it-be-do…

We have summarising videos, and in-depth articles to substantiate our claims and explain better.

We have Social, Economic and Environmental Sustainability guidelines for the recommendations we make.

https://medium.com/hs2-what-is-it-and-how-it-could-it-be-do…

I think it would be of interest to some here.

I hope to hear from you, for whatever purpose. We are very open to comments on what you like, what you would like to see... etc

If you'd like to collaborate with us by either writing or spreading the word, it would be wonderful.

I hope all is well with you and that you have a wonderful day

Best regards,

V

I took the bait and visited your site. Its drivel. The Southern WCML is full. Any alternative to HS2 needs to result in the Southern WCML not being full any more, and having bags of capacity free for healthy future growth. You can tinker with regional transport schemes till the cows home, but the WCML is still at capacity.

A new railway is required, 21st century intercity railways are built to high speed standard. Therefore HS2.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I am far from convinced HS2 is for the benefit of anyone but the LSE business community

London and the South East "business" directly accounts for about half of UK GDP. Add even just the West Midlands and it's well over half.

 

[jon0844]

London and the South East "business" directly accounts for about half of UK GDP. Add even just the West Midlands and it's well over half.

A railway line goes from A to B, so how can it only benefit one end? It's either to allow people from A to get to B faster, or vice versa. I'd say it has to be both ways, or else you wouldn't have trains. Everyone would live and work in London and never have any need to venture out.

It has to benefit people who are on or near the line throughout the route.

 

[Royston Vasey]

A railway line goes from A to B, so how can it only benefit one end? It's either to allow people from A to get to B faster, or vice versa. I'd say it has to be both ways, or else you wouldn't have trains. Everyone would live and work in London and never have any need to venture out.

It has to benefit people who are on or near the line throughout the route.

That's my whole point. It quite clearly is worth doing from the public purse and will benefit the majority of the economy.