HS2: man stands to lose his life's work

[HSTEd]

Why would you need to go up to 300mph? Can you actually find an alignment that could work at that speed - minimum track radius is proportional to the square of the linespeed. You would need novel braking technology and significant groundworks to avoid hitting critical velocity in the underlying soil. Power requirements would be significantly higher. And what time advantage would this actually give, considering most of the time would be taken in accelerating and braking? I can see it working in, say, China but the UK doesn't need to go this fast.

Well we could go for a Chuo Shinkansen type solution - since the technology is now ready for economic application.
And the acceleration rates that Maglevs are capable of are absolutely absurd because the traction power supply is in the track and not the vehicle.

Commuting from London to Edinburgh - would certainly kill of regional nationalism if nothing else.

Why would you want to stop destinations off the high speed line benefitting from it? As it stands trains to and from the North and Scotland will benefit from HS1 as soon as the first section opens.

Because to give these minor destinations minor benefits, we hamstring the ability of the line to benefit major population centres.

Lets imagine that HS2 was being built as a self contained Shinkansen using Breitspurbahn gauging.
18 trains per hour with cross sections comparable to a wide body airliner, probably with double deck platforms. The capacity of such a route would be absurd - its corresponding operating costs per passenger would be astoundingly low.

Does changing trains at the end of the line really inconvenience someone that much when they potentially save lots and lots of money?

Or lets say it is a Maglev, the Maglev could reach Manchester or a spur to the WCML near Manchester (at say Wigan) in 40 minutes or less.
The journey times are still so short that a cross platform interchange still beats the classic compatible solution.

The HS2 structure loading gauge will be big enough for double deck.

And yet it will never be used, because we are going to be stuck with low capacity 200m single deck trains for the forseable future.

 

[quantinghome]

If a 300mph double deck maglev the width of a wide-bodied airliner is viable, why do the vast majority of countries continue to build standard-gauge electrified rail-on-wheel high speed lines? Surely China would stand to benefit from the 'absurd' capacity far more than we do in the UK - after all they have a much bigger population, longer distances to cover and have a far more streamlined planning process. But they're not doing it, and I think that's quite telling.

 

[HSTEd]

If a 300mph double deck maglev the width of a wide-bodied airliner is viable,

I never said that, I said we could build a 300mph maglev or a double deck the width of a wide bodied airliner.
Never to do both.

why do the vast majority of countries continue to build standard-gauge electrified rail-on-wheel high speed lines? Surely China would stand to benefit from the 'absurd' capacity far more than we do in the UK - after all they have a much bigger population, longer distances to cover and have a far more streamlined planning process. But they're not doing it, and I think that's quite telling.

Because the Chinese system was built in a hurry using bought/stolen technology that was available to get shovels in the ground immediately?

And outside China.... I think a significant fraction of High Speed Lines that are actually under construction right now.... are not using traditional technology. There aren't that many projects actually underway for new build lines at the present time. And one of them is Maglev.

 

[najaB]

I think a significant fraction of High Speed Lines that are actually under construction right now.... are not using traditional technology.

That sounds good.

There aren't that many projects actually underway for new build lines at the present time. And one of them is Maglev.

And then your spoil it by saying that it's actually a significant fraction of a very small number.

 

[quantinghome]

I never said that, I said we could build a 300mph maglev or a double deck the width of a wide bodied airliner.
Never to do both.

If they're all good ideas (in your opinion), why not combine them? If maglev is more efficient than wheel-on-rail, why not use that to propel a much larger train body?

Because the Chinese system was built in a hurry using bought/stolen technology that was available to get shovels in the ground immediately?

The Chinese have had a high speed maglev line in commercial operation since 2004 (so far the only one in the world, which is telling). Yet they decided to go with rail-on-wheel high speed network instead? So much for Maglev being ready for economic application.

And outside China.... I think a significant fraction of High Speed Lines that are actually under construction right now.... are not using traditional technology.

Really? What non-traditional technology are they using?

There aren't that many projects actually underway for new build lines at the present time. And one of them is Maglev.

Yep, only 20,000km by this count: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_high-speed_railway_lines. That's only for countries with existing networks with speeds >300km/h. If I had time I would go through this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_high-speed_rail_by_country to work out what else is under construction; the fact that I haven't got time to wade through it suggests there are rather a lot of schemes out there.

If there were other high speed maglev schemes being actively planned and built worldwide i.e. actual, confirmed, this-is-happening projects, not ideas put forward by maglev enthusiasts, then you might have a point. The fact that Chuo Shinkansen is the only example of this in the whole world is again, telling.

 

[HSTEd]

If they're all good ideas (in your opinion), why not combine them? If maglev is more efficient than wheel-on-rail, why not use that to propel a much larger train body?

Because mixing good technologies does not always get a fusion that is better than the components.

Radioisotope heaters are good ideas, ovens are good ideas.
Why not an Radioisotope heated oven?

Maglev trains have to be built to be light, attempting to move something that size on a magnetic field would have... interesting technical problems.

The Chinese have had a high speed maglev line in commercial operation since 2004 (so far the only one in the world, which is telling). Yet they decided to go with rail-on-wheel high speed network instead? So much for Maglev being ready for economic application.

Part of the reason was also that the Germans refused to share technology, and the fact that Maglev was not ready for commercial application 13 years ago apparently means it is not ready now by definition?

Really? What non-traditional technology are they using?

..... maglev?

Yep, only 20,000km by this count: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_high-speed_railway_lines. That's only for countries with existing networks with speeds >300km/h.

So you decide to ignore what I said, and attack a statement you wish I had made instead?
The amount already built is of little consequence in this discussion.
Otherwise railways would have been "not ready for commercial application" because far more transport links based on canals would have been built.

If I had time I would go through this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_high-speed_rail_by_country to work out what else is under construction; the fact that I haven't got time to wade through it suggests there are rather a lot of schemes out there.

Considering the bulk of those schemes are design studies or aspirations..... and contains schemes where the top speed is only 100mph in east asia.

From initial inspection there are only five schemes actually under construction with speeds ~300kph+
India, Indonesia, Iran, Saudi and Japan

There is also the UK, whether you believe HS2 is actually under construction yet.

So 16-20% of the schemes are Maglev.

If there were other high speed maglev schemes being actively planned and built worldwide i.e. actual, confirmed, this-is-happening projects, not ideas put forward by maglev enthusiasts, then you might have a point. The fact that Chuo Shinkansen is the only example of this in the whole world is again, telling.

So several hundred kilometres of track under construction on a commercial basis by the private sector is not an example of a technology being ready for commercial application?[/QUOTE]

 

[quantinghome]

Well, where to begin...

If Maglev needs to stay light, thus precluding a double decker vehicle, that imposes limits on capacity - more so than conventional high speed trains which are often double decker. But then you claim current high speed trains have significant capacity issues which should be solved by a massive gauge increase. If existing high speed rail has insufficient capacity, won't Maglev have even less?

China has had 14 years to consider whether to develop their existing Maglev system further. They are not doing so, despite that fact that the higher speeds would give much greater scope for time savings in a large country. If Maglev is the future, why are they not seeing it when they have far more direct experience of its operation?

The 20,000km estimate is those schemes under construction, NOT already built, in countries with existing high speed rail networks. You then need to add on all the high speed rail lines under construction in countries currently without high speed rail networks - India, Indonesia, Iran, Saudi, Morocco etc. Remove HS2 from the total if you will, it makes little difference to the worldwide picture: it's well over 20,000km. By contrast the Chuo Shinkansen section under construction is 300km, so about 1.5% of the total high speed rail under construction. This is not a significant proportion. Other than Japan, no countries are actively pursuing the technology, even Germany which pioneered the Maglev technology used in Shanghai, but then ditched their proposed scheme and wound up the Transrapid programme.