HS2 Phase 2b. Why?

[158756]

Maybe HS2 might take passengers between the Airport and City Centre, depending on the cost and ease of use of HS2, but you could probably fit all those passengers on the 2tph already loaded with London and Birmingham passengers. The existing station has 7 or 8 tph but they are short trains, which aren't full and many of the passengers want to go somewhere beyond Manchester, which they can't do on HS2. However personally I think if the Airport station is built it should have more than 2tph because I don't see Piccadilly filling a 400m train every 20 minutes.

After the Ordsall Chord is built I think all but one of the Airport's trains will go through Oxford Road, so it doesn't make sense to cut them back because there's nowhere else in Manchester to terminate them, so you don't gain anything there. It might be easier to add more stops in South Manchester though.

 

[HSTEd]

Modern trains can accelerate at rather insane rates.
Especially since HS2 rolling stock will likely be heavily influenced by Japanese practice, in the style of the IEP and the Class 395.

All axles motored and such things.

 

[Ianno87]

I put them the wrong way around but you can still see my point. If there is a travelator link to the HS2 station and the stations are named after the terminals then it will naturally increase use. 4tph would provide a regular service. I didn't say 200m long trains but 200m platforms. This would allow for future growth and allow for extra capacity for major events etc. Airport passengers are likely to be unsuited for London and Birmingham services because they wont be able to book tickets from the airport in advance without risking losing money if their flight arrives in late and they will carry a lot of luggage adding to dwell times. If the Airport HS2 station is built it is unlikely that every service will stop there because of the journey time penalty. One HS2 London service and one HS2 Birmingham service would be adequate for people using the airport HS2 station as a railhead. A dedicated service makes sense. Maybe I am wrong and approximately £1bn will be spent on a HS2 station at the airport and it will mostly cater for local residents while the exisiting station services all stay and waste paths on congested lines in Piccadilly but that doesn't make sense. The cost of HS2 means it should be used to release capacity on the NR network at every opportunity.

But existing trains to/from Manchester Airport do not "waste paths" at Piccadilly. Manchester Airport is basically a glorified set of turnback sidings for stuff coming through 13/14 at Piccadilly that just so happen to be conveniently located at Manchester Airport. If you don't send these trains to Manchester Airport then you'll have to find something else to do with them. Which really will cause a capacity problem around Piccadilly.

The current Airport station is pretty centrally located for the existing terminals, and after December will have direct trains to each of Piccadilly, Oxford Rd, Deansgate and Victoria, with Salford Central being a future possibility too. Ideal for airport passengers.

HS2 however, will be located some distance from the centre of gravity of the airport (requiring a tram/shuttle ride), and only connect to Piccadilly, so I don't think it should be targeted at Airport passengers from the city centte at all. Not to say that through advance tickets via Piccadilly could not be sold, but I don't think HS2 is justification for a significant rolling back of current airport services (which also directly connect much of the north of England to the airport too)

 

[Greybeard33]

The plans of the proposed Airport HS2 station are in Section 4.2 of the Route Engineering Report.

There are two 400m through platforms on an island, with the avoiding lines on the outside. There is no space to add bays for terminating shuttle services. Nor is there provision for a travellator to the airport terminals - AFAIK none of the stakeholders have stated a need for such a link.

A possible compromise to release some capacity on the classic line might be to cut back one of the 2tph TPE services from Leeds to terminate at Piccadilly instead of the Airport, timed to give good connections to HS2 services to/from the Airport. This service could be rerouted via Guide Bridge to terminate in a low-numbered platform near the Piccadilly HS station. Then the path from the Airport classic station could be used for an additional Northern stopper to Victoria (and beyond) via the Ordsall Chord.

 

[Chester1]

The plans of the proposed Airport HS2 station are in Section 4.2 of the Route Engineering Report.

There are two 400m through platforms on an island, with the avoiding lines on the outside. There is no space to add bays for terminating shuttle services. Nor is there provision for a travellator to the airport terminals - AFAIK none of the stakeholders have stated a need for such a link.

A possible compromise to release some capacity on the classic line might be to cut back one of the 2tph TPE services from Leeds to terminate at Piccadilly instead of the Airport, timed to give good connections to HS2 services to/from the Airport. This service could be rerouted via Guide Bridge to terminate in a low-numbered platform near the Piccadilly HS station. Then the path from the Airport classic station could be used for an additional Northern stopper to Victoria (and beyond) via the Ordsall Chord.

That sounds like a good idea and sort of gets us back to the point that HS2 phase 2b should significantly increase capacity into Manchester providing that services are significantly altered to make the most of the opportunity. Its too early to decide service patterns but it is reasonable to suggest that in 16 years time the services can be different to those being introduced when the Ordsall Chord opens.

 

[Clip]

Oh yes, Northern commuters should definitely stop moaning that commuters are shoved into two-car rolling stock that even the Islamic Republic of Iran didn't want to subject onto their own citizens.

.

Has anyone anywhere ever said that or is it just another made up comment that appears from time to time on here?

 

[DanTrain]

But existing trains to/from Manchester Airport do not "waste paths" at Piccadilly. Manchester Airport is basically a glorified set of turnback sidings for stuff coming through 13/14 at Piccadilly that just so happen to be conveniently located at Manchester Airport. If you don't send these trains to Manchester Airport then you'll have to find something else to do with them. Which really will cause a capacity problem around Piccadilly.

The trains coming in from Sheffield have to reverse in Picadilly, esentially taking two paths per train. However, I don't see how TPE are that relevent, as HS2 will do little to relieve airport traffic from Leeds, Liverpool, Sheffield etc.

 

[edwin_m]

The trains coming in from Sheffield have to reverse in Picadilly, esentially taking two paths per train. However, I don't see how TPE are that relevent, as HS2 will do little to relieve airport traffic from Leeds, Liverpool, Sheffield etc.

Indeed it does, but it's the only one that will do that after the other TPE services are diverted via Ordsall Curve. If they didn't go to the Airport the various Liverpool, Blackpool, Glasgow, Edinburgh services would all have to terminate somewhere else, requiring new facilities as there are no suitable existing ones.

I agree HS2 doesn't make much difference to Airport services, which is why the ones on the existing line are unlikely to change much if HS2 is introduced on its own. HS3/NPR, depending what it looks like, might provide services from the HS airport station replacing the existing ones to Liverpool, Sheffield, Leeds and beyond.

 

[Greybeard33]

Indeed it does, but it's the only one that will do that after the other TPE services are diverted via Ordsall Curve. If they didn't go to the Airport the various Liverpool, Blackpool, Glasgow, Edinburgh services would all have to terminate somewhere else, requiring new facilities as there are no suitable existing ones.

The exception being that the two TPE services from Leeds via the Ordsall Chord would not need new facilities if they did not go to the Airport. They could revert to the Guide Bridge route and terminate in the Piccadilly main shed.