HS2 preferred route to Leeds and Manchester announced

[Ianno87]

How many trains are planned on the line to Manchester Piccadilly? One to Birmingham and 2 to London hardly seems worth the effort, particularly as the final 10 miles is planned to be in a tunnel. A station at Manchester Airport will not be adequate compensation for the residents of North Cheshire for loss of stops at Stockport/Wilmslow/Macclesfield on express services to these destinations, particularly as it is very difficult/expensive to park there or drop off/collect passengers.

3tph Euston, plus 2tph Birmingham, as I recall.

For some reason, you are assuming that current Airport terminal drop off charges will apply to the HS2 station, which is about a mile and a half away.

I do wonder how much of Stockport's current Euston service patronage is actually from...Stockport? It is very much a railhead for South Manchester as well as places further afield via the M60. Going to Manchester Airport instead will make little if any difference to these people, as will people who currently drive to Wilmslow. People from leafy Altrincham/Hale will be notably better off.

Admittedly if you actually live in Stockport and walk/bus to the station it is going to be a loss of Euston frequency, but that's always going to be hard to avoid. Wilmslow-ites, if they didn't retain a direct service, would retain a pretty good alternative of train to Crewe then regular HS2 services from there.

And I'd be surprised in Macc lost its 1tph classic service, i.e. exactly what it's got now.

 

[edwin_m]

TfGM is looking at various Metrolink or tram-train options to tie the Airport HS2 station into the rest of south Manchester and Stockport.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Labour party policy is/was to complete HS2. So unless there is a major re-shaping of British Politics, quite possible but perhaps unlikely, then there is only a small political risk.

I think the other risk to HS2 is the potential for meltdown in the World economy. I rate that higher than the political risk.

It is highly unlikely that the Tories will risk another election until after Brexit has happened on 31st March 2019. The deal with the DUP lasts until the end of the (double length) parliamentary session at the end of May 2019. By this stage the construction of HS2 phase 1 will have been happening for a while and phase 2a legislation will have passed. The legislation for phase 2b is due to be introduced to parliament in Autumn 2019 and pass during 2021. It is possible that the phase 2b route could be changed again but it is unlikely.

A new Tory leader may pose a theat to HS2, but I think Theresa May will last untill Brexit is delivered in 2019 to soak up the poison of Brexit within the Tory party then stand aside for a new leader untainted by the decisions on Brexit, by which time construction of Phase 1 should be under way.

 

[158756]

Labour party policy is/was to complete HS2. So unless there is a major re-shaping of British Politics, quite possible but perhaps unlikely, then there is only a small political risk.

Labour party policy may be to support HS2, but there are risks to that:

They have a bunch of MPs up in arms about the new Eastern Leg route.

There is great pressure to find large sums of money for e.g. housing, public sector pay, the NHS. HS2 is widely seen as being for the few, not the many, and would be an easy thing to scrap in the next manifesto.

Support for the project among the many Labour politicians in the North is likely dependent on the full scheme actually being built. There are still rumours HS2 is never intended to go beyond Birmingham.

 

[33Hz]

There seems to be a lot more zig-zagging around stuff. What's the likely impact on the theoretical 400 km/h alignment?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-chaos-sneaked-out-hs2-10816160

The second revealed most of the Y-shaped line's final route, including that it will bypass Sheffield and instead force trains to enter the city on ageing existing lines.

They make a big deal about the route not going into Sheffield. I thought it was Sheffield City Council that didn't want this.

 

[Spod]

Sheffield wanted an HS2 station in the city centre, even if it meant using classic compatibles on an existing alignment. HS2 isn't going to pay for the northward connection from Sheffield, I guess they figure NPR/HS3 can pick up the bill for that. So services to Leeds and beyond may all bypass Sheffield, at least at first. It was a tough decision with none of the affected parties agreeing on one solution, so HS2 had to pick what they considered the least worst option.

Quick question on Mexborough - if (just) 16 houses are to be demolished, are there still 16 spare houses to move the residents into, assuming they wanted to stay on the estate?

 

[edwin_m]

There seems to be a lot more zig-zagging around stuff. What's the likely impact on the theoretical 400 km/h alignment?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-chaos-sneaked-out-hs2-10816160



They make a big deal about the route not going into Sheffield. I thought it was Sheffield City Council that didn't want this.

400km/h is only the aspiration where it doesn't cost much extra to achieve it, which is essentially where curves aren't needed to avoid centres of population or to reduce the costs in hilly areas. Much of the northern part of the Meadowhall route would have been speed restricted anyway, because of the curves needed in the hilly and fairly populated area around Barnsley. I believe the new route further east is actually faster.

Sheffield wanted the high speed route to run through Sheffield itself, but this would have created a more severe speed restriction for non-stopping trains. The alternative of a loop off the Meadowhall route to serve a station near the old Sheffield Victoria was very costly and would have created a major journey time penalty for stopping at Sheffield. And Victoria isn't particularly convenient either for the centre of Sheffield or for onward connections.

Lack of concensus between the local authorities meant that HS2 could effectively make the decision. If everyone had come out solidly behind Meadowhall it would have been much more difficult to change. However this didn't happen and HS2 went looking for alternatives. Once they discovered that the option now preferred would save over a billion I believe Meadowhall was doomed.

 

[quantinghome]

Labour party policy may be to support HS2, but there are risks to that:

They have a bunch of MPs up in arms about the new Eastern Leg route.

Local MPs are complaining where their constituents face property demolition. That's understandable but will do nothing to affect Labour's overall view on HS2

There is great pressure to find large sums of money for e.g. housing, public sector pay, the NHS. HS2 is widely seen as being for the few, not the many, and would be an easy thing to scrap in the next manifesto.

Support for the project among the many Labour politicians in the North is likely dependent on the full scheme actually being built.

Corbyn was initially sceptical about HS2, until the leaders of the big northern cities explained how important it was. HS2 will be like Crossrail - once work is underway it will go on despite calls on money elsewhere.

There are still rumours HS2 is never intended to go beyond Birmingham.

Then HS2 are going about their business in a very strange way.

 

[JamesT]

Sheffield wanted an HS2 station in the city centre, even if it meant using classic compatibles on an existing alignment. HS2 isn't going to pay for the northward connection from Sheffield, I guess they figure NPR/HS3 can pick up the bill for that. So services to Leeds and beyond may all bypass Sheffield, at least at first. It was a tough decision with none of the affected parties agreeing on one solution, so HS2 had to pick what they considered the least worst option.

Where do you get that there won't be a northward connection? The overall map shows HS2 looping off onto the classic network to go through Sheffield Midland then coming back on to join HS2 below the Leeds/York split.

 

[MarkyT]

Sheffield wanted an HS2 station in the city centre, even if it meant using classic compatibles on an existing alignment. HS2 isn't going to pay for the northward connection from Sheffield, I guess they figure NPR/HS3 can pick up the bill for that. So services to Leeds and beyond may all bypass Sheffield, at least at first. It was a tough decision with none of the affected parties agreeing on one solution, so HS2 had to pick what they considered the least worst option.

I don't know why people seem to get miffed about 'only' having classic compatible trains. These will be just as fast and comfortable as any captive trains when on the HS2 main line, and in the case of the Sheffield train can probably be a full 400m length as well. Oh and there's the fact that the initial fleet is to consist of ONLY classic compatible sets, so Sheffield customers will have no different an experience to those in Birmingham and Manchester at Phase 1.

Victoria isn't particularly convenient either for the centre of Sheffield or for onward connections.

The orginal Meadowhall-only proposal was fairly good for local connections, as well as road access. By contrast Victoria would be dire, with no other local railways serving it, a long walk to the nearest tram route, and only limited, (albeit high frequency) bus routes passing by. It is the 'wrong side' of some very large and busy roads more than a kilometer from the town hall area (over double the distance from Midland to that area), so not attractive for walking.

I believe the new route further east is actually faster . . . Once they discovered that the option now preferred would save over a billion I believe Meadowhall was doomed.

That's a win win. Faster and cheaper

Where do you get that there won't be a northward connection? The overall map shows HS2 looping off onto the classic network to go through Sheffield Midland then coming back on to join HS2 below the Leeds/York split.

The simple schematic map in the Mirror article may indicate other unfunded possibilities and aspirations. It omits any service to Stoke on Trent, the subject of another recent announcement by Chris Grayling and which can be delivered by the work proposed. I'm sure the map came from DfT as claimed, but it may not have been part of the current official phase 2 announcement the article is about. The main map, showing the more detailed work superimposed on Ordnance Surveys, shows no northern junction for Sheffield trains to loop back onto HS2 for Leeds.

I think there may be a good case for extending the Sheffield service 5 km beyond Midland, via the classic tracks to Meadowhall to terminate in dedicated new platforms as discussed here:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=3059313&postcount=21

This could avoid long turnback layovers for HS2 trains at the busy Sheffield Midland station itself, perhaps obviating the need to provide additional platforms at the constrained site, as well as providing South Yorkshire with its 'regional parkway' station after all AS WELL as Sheffield's highly desired city centre stop. Sheffield's additional HS2 parkway would be positioned much better on the road network for those accessing the trains from many directions by car, and would also offer its own range of local public transport opportunities already serving the interchange.

 

[Muzer]

I don't know why people seem to get miffed about 'only' having classic compatible trains. These will be just as fast and comfortable as any captive trains when on the HS2 main line, and in the case of the Sheffield train can probably be a full 400m length as well. Oh and there's the fact that the initial fleet is to consist of ONLY classic compatible sets, so Sheffield customers will have no different an experience to those in Birmingham and Manchester at Phase 1.

Which in practice probably means they'll be 20 years older

 

[edwin_m]

Where do you get that there won't be a northward connection? The overall map shows HS2 looping off onto the classic network to go through Sheffield Midland then coming back on to join HS2 below the Leeds/York split.

On a second reading it's a bit more complicated than I thought.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._Route_Refinement_Advice_FINAL_WEB_170713.pdf

14.2.68 North of Sheffield Midland, it is proposed that services could run on a loop and rejoin the HS2 network to provide direct connections between Sheffield and Leeds city centres. We have included within our estimate a figure to deliver a junction between the existing and HS2 networks. We have agreed with DfT that further investment to deliver the necessary capacity, such as electrification, would not be delivered by the HS2 project, as its strategic scope would be wider than HS2 alone. As noted above, Network Rail is currently considering what work is necessary to facilitate such services.

So they have costed for the junction, meaning that the overall cost saving exists even after this cost is allowed for. But they haven't allowed for upgrading and electrifying between Sheffield and the junction, which would be necessary to deliver what the map indicates is possible.

They have also not included for electrifying and upgrading between Sheffield and Clay Cross, but with the difference that that is a committed Network Rail scheme (albeit subject to considerable doubt at present) and any northwards electrification isn't.

 

[DimTim]

In his verbal responses to MP's questions Grayling confirmed electrification of both the southern & northern connections to HS2. Although no reference to MML electrification despite being pressed.
Documents state the northern junction will be near Clayton which appears to suggest that the route to Moorthorpe has been identified. How a 30 min time to Leeds can be achieved by this route will be a challenge with the curve at Masborough although the route thereafter could no doubt be upgraded.

 

[Chester1]

How many miles are between Kettering and Clay Cross? Are there any major clearence issues along the route that would make electrification more expensive than ussual?

 

[snowball]

How many miles are between Kettering and Clay Cross?

About 68.

Are there any major clearence issues along the route that would make electrification more expensive than ussual?

A series of listed low bridges at Belper. A few tunnels. There may well be other difficult places I don't know about. Probably fairly typical overall?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

People from leafy Altrincham/Hale will be notably better off.

I despair at seeing the use of "leafy" to describe places such as Altrincham or Hale as this presupposes other places as being arboreally devoid of any type of leaf canopy in their environs in comparison.

 

[JamesM]

Friends,

Is there a up to date "sample" or "projected" service frequency timetable around anywhere? I saw a paper written a few years back discussing potential service patterns, but was trying to get my head around how places like Crewe and Stockport would be affected once the whole project went live.

I'm talking more "Time table" or at least an idea of how long it'll take from each station and what their total number of services an hour will be.

For example, will Stockport residents actually get a slower service (a sort of semi commuter style chugger) to London, once HS2 arrives.

I was wondering if such a document exists, as I've struggled to find one.

Many thanks

James

 

[The Planner]

No timetable in the normal form exists.

 

[matacaster]

Would you prefer a swathe of Wigan to be demolished for quadrupling from North Western to Standish, or for it to remain a two-track bottleneck until either the bypass is revived or for ever?

Demolishing a swathe of Wigan may have some virtue.

 

[matacaster]

I despair at seeing the use of "leafy" to describe places such as Altrincham or Hale as this presupposes other places as being arboreally devoid of any type of leaf canopy in their environs in comparison.

A visit to Ravensthorpe will unlikely result in the description of 'leafy' being mentioned in your diary.

 

[Roose]

Demolishing a swathe of Wigan may have some virtue.

:roll:

 

[pemma]

Looking at this document released today: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...629171/crewe-hub-consultation-web-version.pdf

It appears London to Manchester HS2 services may not serve the 'Crewe Hub', while Liverpool and Preston services will serve it but won't serve Birmingham. There's also an option for a London to Macclesfield service leaving London on the HS2 route but then switching to the existing WCML.