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HS2 Rolling Stock Contract Award

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LNW-GW Joint

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Details are emerging of the court action by Siemens to stop the award of this contract for 54 high speed trains for HS2 to Hitachi/Bombardier.
The Telegraph has a piece on this: £2.8bn HS2 contract 'shrouded in mystery', Siemens lawsuit claims (msn.com)
The gist of it is that the Siemens bid meets the spec and the Hitachi/Bombardier one doesn't (but how would we know?).

HS2 is poised to award a flagship £2.8bn train building contract to two manufacturers that failed to meet the rail link’s own criteria after a process "shrouded in mystery", the German manufacturing behemoth Siemens has claimed in the high court.
Bosses at the high-speed rail link have been accused by Siemens Mobility of serious failings after they backed a rival bid from Hitachi and Bombardier.
The Hitachi/Bombardier joint venture failed to meet HS2’s technical requirements - such as manufacturing standards, timetable and cost - but was still selected to build the trains, according to the court filings.
Siemens added that HS2 also failed to consider problems with Hitachi’s trains that led to widespread disruption across the UK rail network earlier this year.
An injunction is now being sought by Siemens to prevent HS2 formally awarding the train building contract to Hitachi and Bombardier.
Siemens claims that their contract is the only one to fulfil HS2’s original requirements.

Presumably we are talking about a derivative of the Velaro for Siemens, against a Frecciarossa ETR1000 derivative from Hitachi/Bombardier (now Alstom).
It's not clear how much UK content there would be in either case, or if the Class 80x structural failures have any bearing on the Hitachi bid.
You might also wonder why Alstom's principal bid based on its AGR design failed to progress.

This feels a bit like the fallout from the Eurostar class 374 bid, where the positions were reversed - Siemens won the bid and Alstom went legal in an unsuccessful attempt to overturn it.
The other complication is how Hitachi/Alstom will handle the contract once it is awarded.
Possibly the prime contract could find its way to Hitachi, with Alstom (ex-Bombardier) as a subcontractor.
 
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DanNCL

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Scandalous if it has been awarded to Hitachi given the severe failings with the IEP contract, which Hitachi are as much at fault for as the DFT.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Scandalous if it has been awarded to Hitachi given the severe failings with the IEP contract, which Hitachi are as much at fault for as the DFT.
Order book is drying up at Newton Aycliffe not good for levelling in the NE
 

greyman42

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So for right or wrong, that might come into consideration when placing the order.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The obvious manufacturing solution is to use Pistoia (where ETR1000s are built) with finishing at Derby or Newton Aycliffe.
I've no idea if that is what is proposed though.
Either way the ingredients will be of foreign design.
 

Domh245

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Is this not a bit of a non-story. With a contract of this size you'd launch legal action regardless

It's not clear how much UK content there would be in either case,

I would think similar in both cases - bodyshell assembly and screwing together of most parts. There'd be the usual smattering of UK components from the usual suppliers (Brecknell Wills, Dellner, Petards, BMAC, Siemens)

if the Class 80x structural failures have any bearing on the Hitachi bid.

Depends on when the award decision was reached. Given that it's one of Siemens' attack lines, it seems like it wasn't originally factored into the decision

The other complication is how Hitachi/Alstom will handle the contract once it is awarded.

Why not exactly the same way that it would have been handled between Hitachi & Bombardier?

That's not a reason to award a contract to a company who's trains haven't even lasted 5 years and are already potentially needing replacement bodyshells.

We get it, you really don't like Hitachi...

(I seem to recall an informed source saying that talk of replacement bodyshells was "wide of the mark"..)
 

Bletchleyite

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Do we know they've gone through all the complexity of designing a UK gauge Frecciarossa, or is it more likely an AT300 derivative with some Bombardier components e.g. perhaps the traction package or bogies? I'd bet on the latter.

Edit: it appears it'd be the "AT400".
 

DanNCL

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With a contract of this size you'd launch legal action regardless
No you don't. Did Bombardier or Siemens launch legal action over the IEP contract? No. Did anyone launch legal action over the Crossrail train contract? No. Did anyone launch legal action over the (admittedly smaller) Tyne & Wear Metro contract? No.

Why not exactly the same way that it would have been handled between Hitachi & Bombardier?
Because Alstom had their own seperate bid in addition to the Hitachi joint venture bid.

We get it, you really don't like Hitachi...

(I seem to recall an informed source saying that talk of replacement bodyshells was "wide of the mark"..)
You assume wrong. I haven't got a problem with the company itself. I have a problem with the substandard trains that they have delivered to multiple UK operators including those ordered with UK taxpayer's money, and the futher handing of more than £2 billion of taxpayers money to a company that has delivered the taxpayer such poor value for money on the last contract they "fulfilled".

For the record I actually consider two of Hitachi's UK products, the 385 and the 395, to be exceptionally good. That doesn't automatically make them the best bidder for this contract though.
 

hwl

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No you don't. Did Bombardier or Siemens launch legal action over the IEP contract? No. Did anyone launch legal action over the Crossrail train contract? No. Did anyone launch legal action over the (admittedly smaller) Tyne & Wear Metro contract? No.
Bombardier walked away with a large sum after the Merseyrail contract award.
Bombardier and Alstom pre-merger had started legal action with TfL on NTfL
Do we know they've gone through all the complexity of designing a UK gauge Frecciarossa,
They have, Frecciarossa is Italian network classic compatible they only need to lose an inch on the bodyshell height for example. It required less change than any of the other bodyshells. Bombardier did a very good design job originally.

The gist of it is that the Siemens bid meets the spec and the Hitachi/Bombardier one doesn't (but how would we know?).
The tenderers had the option to submit a non complaint alternative bid as well (Siemens did this for New Tube for London so they don't have much of leg to stand on as regards alternative bids!) and there were multiple interior specifications and the iterative specifications after submission upon which the final decision would be made.
Presumably we are talking about a derivative of the Velaro for Siemens, against a Frecciarossa ETR1000 derivative from Hitachi/Bombardier (now Alstom).
Velaro Turkey derivative
Frecciarossa ETR1000 derivative (Bombardier design, the Italians wouldn't even buy something designed by Ansaldo!)
It's not clear how much UK content there would be in either case, or if the Class 80x structural failures have any bearing on the Hitachi bid.
No Japanese aluminium alloys, heat treatment choices or structural design, so no bearing.
You might also wonder why Alstom's principal bid based on its AGR design failed to progress.
Because it was very poorly suited to meeting the HS2 tender requirements, the structural design wasn't well suited to being adapted the UK loading gauge and other requirements and is a fundamentally less space efficient design (would score poorly on total seats) as the bodyshell was original designed for Jacobs bogies and SNCF requirements (which are deliberately different to make it harder for non French bidders.)
Would the Bombardier factory at Derby be in line to benefit from this order going to Hitachi/Bombardier?
That was the original plan.


The result is exactly what I predicted well over three years ago...
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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Because it was very poorly suited to meeting the HS2 tender requirements, the structural design wasn't well suited to being adapted the UK loading gauge and other requirements and is a fundamentally less space efficient design (would score poorly on total seats) as the bodyshell was original designed for Jacobs bogies and SNCF requirements (which are deliberately different to make it harder for non French bidders.)
You mean, like the class 373 TGV-clone which was successfully adapted to UK gauge?
I'm not saying Alstom should have won, but I don't think you can dismiss them out of hand.
Besides, the 373s had proper UK content in the traction package (but the HS2 AGR bid probably doesn't).
 

hwl

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You mean, like the class 373 TGV-clone which was successfully adapted to UK gauge?
I'm not saying Alstom should have won, but I don't think you can dismiss them out of hand.
Besides, the 373s had proper UK content in the traction package (but the HS2 AGR bid probably doesn't).
Having read all the tender docs quite few times over and advised one of the bidders on their bid I might just know what I'm talking about...

No because there are significant extra requirements that make adaptation harder and more adapted designs will tend score lower.
The spec is based on UIC cross border high speed standards which France as often avoided using internally.
The HS2 requirements include no Jacobs bogies, intermediate vehicles at 25.0m length, doors as close to the vehicle ends as possible and minimal internal width requirements hence the Eurostar 373 just shrink the height and width approach is ruled out for Alstom. (Bombardier-Hitachi, CAF and Siemens have existing designs meeting these requirements but not the UK height /width dimensions)
The HS2 requirements also require minimal adaption and use of tested design and technologies (Bombardier-Hitachi, CAF and Siemens again do well here).

Jacobs bogie vehicle designs have very heavily reinforced / bulky vehicle ends for the bogie mounting and hence the doors further away from the ends reduce the size of the passenger seating area (so the design scores lower) but you can't use a new bodyshells design that isn't tested.
E.g. it was obvious from the early draft rolling stock specs (~7 years ago)that Alstom could never submit a winning bid unless most of the other bidders all screwed up or walked away.

When Hitachi bought Ansaldo (and got Breda as well!) they decided the writing was on the wall and joined the Bombardier bid making it stronger (and leaving an extra slot for CAF to the shortlisted and delaying the inevitable CAF legal action.) Either Derby or NA alone winning would have made it difficult to fulfil other UK stock orders hence teaming up is good for both factories.
 

43096

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Either Derby or NA alone winning would have made it difficult to fulfil other UK stock orders hence teaming up is good for both factories.
But likely bad for passengers and users of HS2. Both have a very strong record of either being serially very late with new orders (Aventra) or building trains that are fundamentally flawed in their design (materials specification) and/or construction. Neither have a good record on "attitude to customers". Frankly I wouldn't touch Hitachi with a barge pole until they have proved that they can fix the 80x fiasco - until they do so, they shouldn't even be considered for a new stock contract.
 

fgwrich

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But likely bad for passengers and users of HS2. Both have a very strong record of either being serially very late with new orders (Aventra) or building trains that are fundamentally flawed in their design (materials specification) and/or construction. Neither have a good record on "attitude to customers". Frankly I wouldn't touch Hitachi with a barge pole until they have proved that they can fix the 80x fiasco - until they do so, they shouldn't even be considered for a new stock contract.
Nail on the head here in my mind too. Hitachi still seem unwilling to admit any fault with their much vaunted 80X fleet. And given Derby's record with the many, many late (37x, 172, 345, 7xx, SSL Stock to name a few) deliveries and poor QC over the years, the prospect of both manufacturers teaming up does not fill me with confidence. The fact were still what, 4 years in the SWR franchise with little to no sign of the 701 fleet entering service does not shout 'award more contracts to us!' to me.
 

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Derby has been doomed ever since the French bought it. It's only a question of when.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Having read all the tender docs quite few times over and advised one of the bidders on their bid I might just know what I'm talking about...
I take your point.
If the AGR was so unsuitable you might have thought Alstom would have submitted a Pendolino-based offer - there is at least a successful UK version already operating.

Delivery timing might not be critical for HS2 (as construction has slipped since the rolling stock tender went out), but there remain the systematic manufacturing issues over software (ex-Bombardier) and build quality (Hitachi).
Operational experience of ETR 1000 in Italy seems favourable; at least the junior partner in Avanti will know all about any foibles.
 

TRAX

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Derby has been doomed ever since the French bought it. It's only a question of when.
You seem to be equipped with a crystal ball ! It’s only a question of if it’s reliable or not.
 

hwl

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If the AGR was so unsuitable you might have thought Alstom would have submitted a Pendolino-based offer - there is at least a successful UK version already operating.
Pendo design doesn't meet current crash regs so effectively a non starter.
The bidders had to have a newish design that meets the current regs that someone has already bought (or if not bought the latest iteration has already been tendered elsewhere AND a large amount of the entire technologies platforms deployed on other builds have already been used previously).
Bombardier-Hitachi, CAF and Siemens all doing ok with current designs (that need minimal modification for HS2) selling in Europe both inside and outside country of "manufacture". Alstom and Talgo not doing so well on this.

Part of the reason for previous deployment requirements is to flush out potential Hitachi 80x problems, HS2 wanted other operators to have found issues first. (e.g. Breda with Fyra in Netherlands /Belgium)

Delivery timing might not be critical for HS2 (as construction has slipped since the rolling stock tender went out), but there remain the systematic manufacturing issues over software (ex-Bombardier) and build quality (Hitachi).
There is existing software and it also predates the opening of the Bangalore office, this would be the 7th order (in 4countries) of the stock so hopefully not to many surprises. The bodyshell design, alloy and fabrication choices (Bombardier) doesn't appear to have build quality issues (several countries and factories). Much of the tech is also deployed in Chinese Zefiro (2 newer designs - bodyshells and bogies; traction equipment of all 3) as well as the Italian product for Italy and Spain.
Operational experience of ETR 1000 in Italy seems favourable; at least the junior partner in Avanti will know all about any foibles.
and they did go back and order more of them half a decade after the first were in service...
They beat CAF and Talgo* for a Spanish order recently (in service next year)

*Many of Talgo's standard gauge high speed designs have a lot of Bombardier content
 

Mordac

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You seem to be equipped with a crystal ball ! It’s only a question of if it’s reliable or not.
I just know the Sixth Law of Informed Sources: "Don’t engage in joint ventures with the French." More importantly, I know the history that lies behind it.
 

Mikey C

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I just know the Sixth Law of Informed Sources: "Don’t engage in joint ventures with the French." More importantly, I know the history that lies behind it.
Alstom will be aware that since they closed down Washwood Heath they've won NO new contracts (other than small top up orders for Jubilee Line trains and 390s)

As we are no longer in the EU, the government has far more freedom to insist on local production. Alstom would be mad to lose their major UK location
 

43096

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Alstom will be aware that since they closed down Washwood Heath they've won NO new contracts (other than small top up orders for Jubilee Line trains and 390s)

As we are no longer in the EU, the government has far more freedom to insist on local production. Alstom would be mad to lose their major UK location
Alstom haven’t won a competitive new main line trains order (ie excluding Pendolinos) since they floated on the Paris stick market and changed their name from GEC-Alsthom. That’s well over 20 years ago; in fact not this millennium.
 

TRAX

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I just know the Sixth Law of Informed Sources: "Don’t engage in joint ventures with the French." More importantly, I know the history that lies behind it.

If only the second biggest rolling stock manufacturer worldwide and biggest in Europe wasn’t a British company… oh wait it’s not, it’s French, it’s Alstom…
 

Energy

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Not unexpected with these types of contracts. It will be interesting with how this ends up, Siemens do have some good points with the 80X cracking and Hitachi & Bombardier are probably not very popular with the DfT right now given the cracking and Bombardier's delays (701s especially... )
 

Roast Veg

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Having read all the tender docs quite few times over and advised one of the bidders on their bid I might just know what I'm talking about...

No because there are significant extra requirements that make adaptation harder and more adapted designs will tend score lower.
The spec is based on UIC cross border high speed standards which France as often avoided using internally.
The HS2 requirements include no Jacobs bogies, intermediate vehicles at 25.0m length, doors as close to the vehicle ends as possible and minimal internal width requirements hence the Eurostar 373 just shrink the height and width approach is ruled out for Alstom. (Bombardier-Hitachi, CAF and Siemens have existing designs meeting these requirements but not the UK height /width dimensions)
The HS2 requirements also require minimal adaption and use of tested design and technologies (Bombardier-Hitachi, CAF and Siemens again do well here).

Jacobs bogie vehicle designs have very heavily reinforced / bulky vehicle ends for the bogie mounting and hence the doors further away from the ends reduce the size of the passenger seating area (so the design scores lower) but you can't use a new bodyshells design that isn't tested.
E.g. it was obvious from the early draft rolling stock specs (~7 years ago)that Alstom could never submit a winning bid unless most of the other bidders all screwed up or walked away.

When Hitachi bought Ansaldo (and got Breda as well!) they decided the writing was on the wall and joined the Bombardier bid making it stronger (and leaving an extra slot for CAF to the shortlisted and delaying the inevitable CAF legal action.) Either Derby or NA alone winning would have made it difficult to fulfil other UK stock orders hence teaming up is good for both factories.
It sounds like it was hardly worth Talgo or CAF bidding.
 

Mollman

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Alstom will be aware that since they closed down Washwood Heath they've won NO new contracts (other than small top up orders for Jubilee Line trains and 390s)

As we are no longer in the EU, the government has far more freedom to insist on local production. Alstom would be mad to lose their major UK location
It is an interesting lesson in tarnished reputation. Operators experience with the Juniper and Coradia units seem to put people off ordering from Alstom but other manufactures keep getting orders despite well known issues.
 
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