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HS2 Rolling Stock Procurement

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GCR

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the Y serves essentially all the big cities. Add in NPHR and Edinburgh-Glasgow, and pretty much everywhere is connected. ...HS2 is considerably more radial into Birmingham, which makes perfect sense.
The problem is the word 'essentially'. Four cities: London, Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds are on dead ends. That is not giving them or the rest of the cities a service. Why does it make perfect sense to create radial routes into Birmingham, particularly when they don't join up with New Street? I just cannot see the Swiss, Germans or Dutch proposing something so stupid.
 
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NotATrainspott

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The problem is the word 'essentially'. Four cities: London, Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds are on dead ends. That is not giving them or the rest of the cities a service. Why does it make perfect sense to create radial routes into Birmingham, particularly when they don't join up with New Street? I just cannot see the Swiss, Germans or Dutch proposing something so stupid.

Because these dead-ends do make sense when you see the way that passengers actually flow around the rail network. There is no fundamental need for trains heading into Birmingham to then continue out again. The only other large cities where they could head will have their own dedicated HS2 service involving no time-consuming diversion through the city. The places that won't have their own service are then for the most part too small for it to be worth sending a multi-million pound 360km/h trainset trundling along a commuter or regional line to visit.

Look at the way that the British rail network works today and you can see pretty well why HS2 will follow effectively the same model. While it is often possible for trains to continue beyond their normal terminus this is relatively rare, or they do so to visit significant areas that justify a service. Virgin Trains West Coast services to Manchester run to Piccadilly and then terminate, while they bypass Birmingham completely by running along the Trent Valley. After Rugby, VTWC trains either head up directly to Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester or Preston/Carlisle/Scotland.

The trains that do run through these large city centre stations are the CrossCountry services, which exist for the sake of inter-regional connectivity. However, as a result of that they have to be very slow, stopping much more frequently than their counterparts going to/from London. There's no way of making them faster without disrupting other regional services and connectivity. HS2 will address some CrossCountry journey types but it can only efficiently do so by bypassing as much of the existing line as they can. Running a Curzon Street-Manchester on HS2 means missing out quite a few stations, but that means having a much faster end-to-end journey time that is actually worthy of the cities that it serves. Meanwhile, the current path is still available for those needing to connect to intermediate places like Wolverhampton. If HS2 trains are to run through Birmingham I can really only see that happening with a new dedicated line, but that line would only be justified for trains heading south-west where direct services wouldn't otherwise be possible. However, that would add a significant amount of cost and difficulty onto the project without really improving the services that are actually justifying the construction of the line in the first place.

A set of lines from Brent Cross or anywhere else does not make a network. That's the problem with guessing.

The arguments you were making are highly reminiscent of the High Speed UK 'proposals' which included just such a Brent Cross Interchange.
 

edwin_m

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Will be interesting if both Siemens and Alstom get through considering the merger for the rail division.
They have to continue as independent companies until they have the approval of all applicable regulators for a merger. But I imagine if that happens they will drop whichever bid they think is less likely to succeed and/or more advantageous to them if it does.
 

Suraggu

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They have to continue as independent companies until they have the approval of all applicable regulators for a merger. But I imagine if that happens they will drop whichever bid they think is less likely to succeed and/or more advantageous to them if it does.
Exactly, thats the point. They have the advantage in a way.
 

WatcherZero

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5 shortlisted are Talgo, Hitachi, Siemens, Alstom and Bombardier.

So no CAF, CRRC (China), alternate Japanese or surprise entry
 

LNW-GW Joint

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5 shortlisted are Talgo, Hitachi, Siemens, Alstom and Bombardier.
So no CAF, CRRC (China), alternate Japanese or surprise entry

No wonder Talgo have been scouting around for a building/assembly site, despite not having any kind of UK track record.
Actually, on a broader front it's possible they might tie up with CAF to counter the Siemens/Alstom merger.
 

absolutelymilk

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edwin_m

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Exactly, thats the point. They have the advantage in a way.
They get two shots at the target, but they have to incur two sets of bidding costs and any suggestion of collusion will almost certainly disqualify both bids and probably land them in court as well. They can't put in a combined bid that plays on the strengths of both parts, unless they somehow manage to shoehorn bits of bid 1 into bid 2 after the merger goes ahead.
 

The Planner

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http://www.cityam.com/275041/hs2-na...isted?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=dvTwitter



That seems like a long time for testing. Perhaps they will be used in passenger service on other lines in the run-up to the introduction to service on HS2, e.g. covering GWML or ECML services.

The obvious place to do it is the WCML, though you would need an element of timetable rewrite as they would be 110mph. Also consider that fact that line will be pretty much finished by 2024 to test anyway so early 2020s could quite easily be 2022 or 23.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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That seems like a long time for testing. Perhaps they will be used in passenger service on other lines in the run-up to the introduction to service on HS2, e.g. covering GWML or ECML services.

As they will be assets of the West Coast Partnership franchise, and they are classic-compatible, you'd expect them to be used on existing WCP services before HS2 is ready.
North of Lichfield/Crewe, they will be the prime services on the existing WCML anyway.
 

absolutelymilk

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As they will be assets of the West Coast Partnership franchise, and they are classic-compatible, you'd expect them to be used on existing WCP services before HS2 is ready.
North of Lichfield/Crewe, they will be the prime services on the existing WCML anyway.
The lack of tilt means they will be going at 110 rather than 125. However, if they were on Birmingham-Scotland services, this wouldn't be so much of an issue (and would also free up Pendolinos and avoid diesel Voyagers under the wires).
 

squizzler

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The lack of tilt means they will be going at 110 rather than 125. However, if they were on Birmingham-Scotland services, this wouldn't be so much of an issue (and would also free up Pendolinos and avoid diesel Voyagers under the wires).
I think a tilting mechanism on these trains is not a black and white issue. The Talgo famously has a passive tilting mechanism that confers some of the advantages for passenger comfort with lower expense than full blown tilt. The active suspension being fitted to some trains (notably the latest Twindexx in Switzerland) not only counteracts the leaning caused by centripetal force but can actually tilt the body a degree or two inwards. Compared to 110mph Mk 3's I think there is potential for marginal gains on existing alignments without the expense of a dedicated tilt mechanism.
 

MarkyT

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I think a tilting mechanism on these trains is not a black and white issue. The Talgo famously has a passive tilting mechanism that confers some of the advantages for passenger comfort with lower expense than full blown tilt. The active suspension being fitted to some trains (notably the latest Twindexx in Switzerland) not only counteracts the leaning caused by centripetal force but can actually tilt the body a degree or two inwards. Compared to 110mph Mk 3's I think there is potential for marginal gains on existing alignments without the expense of a dedicated tilt mechanism.

The state of the art N700 Shinkansen design incorporates a small degree of tilt to squeeze a little more speed out of the earliest high speed lines in Japan which have curves as tight as 2500m radius in some places. The tiny tilt employed (limited to only 1%) allows a speed increase from 255kph to 270kph in those circumstances, contributing to an 8 minute journey time saving between Tokyo and Osaka on the fastest, most limited stop Nozomi trains. These units also have an extraordinary maximum acceleration rate of 2.6 km/h/s, which allows them to reach 270kph in 3 minutes from a standing start. Similar performance from UK conventional compatible HS stock could allow trains to accelerate out of any restrictive curves on the sections north of Crewe more quickly than even Pendolinos today, making up for some of the losses from not being able to tilt (so much perhaps) in the curves. I was quite suprprised to find Preston-Glasgow was typically only 12 minutes slower on TPE than Virgin with two more stops. That suggests that with the CCs probably having a slightly more sprightly performance than the EMUs and a more limited stopping pattern the increase, even from Crewe, might be under 10 minutes. That is dwarfed by the 40 minutes+ gained on the southern section, particularly after Phase 2A completes as far as Crewe.

'Traditional' Japanese tilt technology as employed on some of their narrow gauge express stock is partly passive and claimed to be simpler and lighter than typical European forms:

http://www.hitachi-rail.com/products/rolling_stock/tilting/feature05.html

I don't know what method of tilt the N700 suspension is based on.
 

squizzler

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I don't know what method of tilt the N700 suspension is based on.

I speculate that the N700 and the Swiss Twindexx have an evolved but otherwise conventional bogie incorporating mechatronics in the suspension which can actively counteract the natural tendency of the bodies to compress the outboards springs as they roll outwards in curves. Whereas a "true" tilting train has a dedicated tilting mechanism imposed between the the body and the bogie - so lots more complexity and weight.
 

edwin_m

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I speculate that the N700 and the Swiss Twindexx have an evolved but otherwise conventional bogie incorporating mechatronics in the suspension which can actively counteract the natural tendency of the bodies to compress the outboards springs as they roll outwards in curves. Whereas a "true" tilting train has a dedicated tilting mechanism imposed between the the body and the bogie - so lots more complexity and weight.
There was a proposal back in the 80s to do the same with the Mk3 by differentially inflating the airbags on each side.
 

HSTEd

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The absurd acceleration of modern high performance units (as exemplified by the N700) almost makes the lack of tilt irrelevant.
They can accelerate and brake at rates which would have been unimaginable when the WCRM was underway.
 

MarkyT

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I speculate that the N700 and the Swiss Twindexx have an evolved but otherwise conventional bogie incorporating mechatronics in the suspension which can actively counteract the natural tendency of the bodies to compress the outboards springs as they roll outwards in curves. Whereas a "true" tilting train has a dedicated tilting mechanism imposed between the the body and the bogie - so lots more complexity and weight.
I read about the Twindex trains and their novel bogies. Very impressive claims about what can be achieved with what is actually a very lightweight inside framed bogie, not the big chunky ones used on the tilting Voyagers for instance that added around 10 tonnes per vehicle compared to the non tilters. Even without tilt, reducing side roll in corners can allow some increased speed through tight structures, the new mechatronic system compensating to produce a smaller dynamic profile and thus greater clearance.
 

squizzler

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i'm not sure that the Twindexx uses an inside frame bogie, the Flexx Load is described as the bogie used on double-deck stock and is a conventional design. The website suggests that Bombardier have a secret sauce which gives active control called the Flexx Tronioc WAKO that customers can specify on the bogies of their choice.
 

Bletchleyite

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Passive tilt on the Talgo is done by suspending the coach from the bogie at the top and allowing the bottom to swing out. This is pretty simple but would be a poor fit for the UK because it would make for a coach very narrow at seat level, making the seats very narrow.
 

edwin_m

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Passive tilt on the Talgo is done by suspending the coach from the bogie at the top and allowing the bottom to swing out. This is pretty simple but would be a poor fit for the UK because it would make for a coach very narrow at seat level, making the seats very narrow.
Also tricky when passing a curved (high) platform!
 

edwin_m

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Indeed. So not at all suitable for the UK.

Talgo may well bid (I think they will) but I expect they will bid non-tilt.
Especially as, unless there has been a radical change of mind at HS2 Ltd, the spec will only ask for non-tilt trains!

Even without tilt it would be difficult to adapt the low-slung Talgo concept to the UK where the train has to fit onto classic infrastructure with high platforms and narrow gaps between them. So it may be that Talgo is bidding something more conventional.
 

Domh245

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And then there's me, thinking that a proper TGV reached 574 km/h more than a decade ago... is money the limiting factor in this?

Not sure what point you are trying to make here? The 574km/h train was hardly proper - it had been modified specifically for the run (including more than doubling the installed power, and cutting the rake of carriages down from 8 to 3), as had the infrastructure (more voltage and a higher tension for the overhead wires).
 

whhistle

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There also needs to be some answer for Voyager routes.
"Change at Crewe" is not acceptable.
Who says it isn't? You?
Not getting at you personally, but what you (or even a few people on here) think isn't really concerns of HS2 LTD. I mean, it's not acceptable to me that sometimes, the McDonalds Drive Thru is a little slow, but what can I do about it? Nothing. It's just life.
 

WatcherZero

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Talgo has been scouting locations for a new UK test track if they start manufacturing here with former coal freight lines in Yorkshire and Scotland in the cross hairs. The Scottish, Tyne and Welsh governments are also fighting hard to be the site chosen for manufacturing with offers of financial inducements to set up in former steel industry areas.
 
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