HS2- Southwestern Spur

[The Ham]

Given the talk of the benefits of a southwestern spur and that XC is generally a series of overlapping services then could the following be a useful outcome.

If a SW spur from HS2 was built along with electrification from there through to (say) Western-Super-Mare then the traditional XC services could run through to Moor Street and the new electric XC services could run through to Western-Super-Mare via Bristol.

In doing so, several of the across Birmingham journeys undertaken on XC services would continue to be able to be direct without needing to electrifying all the way west and without needing to have very fast electric trains (i.e. over 140mph) with bimodal capability.

There may need to be extra capacity works to facilitate the extra trains between south of Birmingham, however I'd imagine that would be limited (although I'm sure that others would highlight where this would be needed), especially if you could replace one of the Western-Super-Mare services with this new XC/HS2 service (reducing the impact at Bristol).

 

[Irascible]

Might as well take it to Taunton, it'd not really need major earthworks given it's more or less flat between there & WSM & it's a railhead for a pretty huge area.

Given there aren't even wires to Bristol TM yet though...

 

[SynthD]

Last time this came up people were unsure how to connect from hs2 to the xc lines. How would you do it?

 

[Halifaxlad]

Last time this came up people were unsure how to connect from hs2 to the xc lines. How would you do it?

I could imagine a junction with the GWML.

 

[JonathanH]

I could imagine a junction with the GWML.

How? At Old Oak Common?

There is pretty much no chance of that as there is no space. Easier to just have people change trains.

As written above, any physical connection between HS2 and the South West needs to be west of the Delta Junction in the West Midlands, not in London.

 

[SynthD]

As written above, any physical connection between HS2 and the South West needs to be west of the Delta Junction in the West Midlands, not in London.

In your area map - HS2

Search our interactive In Your Area Map to find information about current or planned HS2 construction works taking place across the route.

www.hs2.org.uk

Somewhere in that area?

 

[JonathanH]

In your area map - HS2

Search our interactive In Your Area Map to find information about current or planned HS2 construction works taking place across the route.

www.hs2.org.uk

Somewhere in that area?

Yes, obviously it cant be done but it can't be done east of the junction either as it would prevent the intended service expected over the core line southwards.

 

[edwin_m]

Capacity-wise I think it would be possible to diverge somewhere between the Birmingham Interchange and the end of the four-track section going towards London, as trains to and from the SW could then run parallel with London trains. It would then strike out south-westwards. However this takes it into fairly hilly country including parts of the Cotswolds. The best route for topography might be something like:

• Diverge immediately south of the Interchange
• Follow the M42 through the gap between Solihull and Dorridge
• Continue straight on where the M42 turns right at the M40 junction, cutting through a difficult bit of country to the vicinity of Outhill
• Try to follow the edges of river valleys (between the hills and the flood plains) east of Studley, west of Alcester.
• Follow A46, bypass Evesham one side or the other
• Re-join existing route south of Ashchurch

A possible alternative from the Interchange might follow the Grand Union Canal and the River Alne, joining the above near Alcester. A possible extension for South Wales would continue the line to pick up the Severn valley west of Cheltenham and Gloucester but would probably have to join an upgraded existing route through the Forest of Dean. This could perhaps throw off an eastern spur re-joining the existing Bristol line around Standish Junction as a Cheltenham-Gloucester bypass and perhaps follow the M5 to get closer to Bristol.

 

[Nottingham59]

The obvious place to provide NE-SW connectivity on HS2 would have been at Curzon St station. All it needed was to design the station to allow a chord from the platforms to curve round to the Camp Hill lines. This would have allowed trains from Newcastle and Leeds to proceed on the classic network towards Bristol via King Norton.

They might have had to build extra platforms at a higher or lower level than the main station to allow the chord to pass over or under the WCML and the line to Water Orton, but as far as I can tell this was never considered.

The tragedy of the way that HS2 was conceived that it was specified as a stand-alone railway rather than being designed from the start as part of the wider network (IMO). The changes that are being forced on the project: the spur to Sheffield; the extra platforms at Mancester; a triangular junction to Liverpool; interworking with Leeds-York traffic are all going to be more expensive and less useful than they would have been if they had been planned for at the start.

 

[edwin_m]

The obvious place to provide NE-SW connectivity on HS2 would have been at Curzon St station. All it needed was to design the station to allow a chord from the platforms to curve round to the Camp Hill lines. This would have allowed trains from Newcastle and Leeds to proceed on the classic network towards Bristol via King Norton.

They might have had to build extra platforms at a higher or lower level than the main station to allow the chord to pass over or under the WCML and the line to Water Orton, but as far as I can tell this was never considered.

The tragedy of the way that HS2 was conceived that it was specified as a stand-alone railway rather than being designed from the start as part of the wider network (IMO). The changes that are being forced on the project: the spur to Sheffield; the extra platforms at Mancester; a triangular junction to Liverpool; interworking with Leeds-York traffic are all going to be more expensive and less useful than they would have been if they had been planned for at the start.

Further north, those changes are being included fairly early in the design phase and before Parliamentary powers are applied for, so making changes is not trivial but a lot easier than later in the process. The recent Infrastructure Commission report is also suggesting more radical change such as prioritising NPR over HS2 eastern leg, which is still possible but should have been looked at several years ago before commitments were made and expectations set.

Unfortunately it's far too late to make changes around Birmingham, as it has powers and construction contracts are let. I doubt a spur from Curzon Street to Camp Hill was ever possible in the space available, but a link to allow trains from the north to continue via New Street would probably have been. It isn't now though, unless by happenstance the HS2 alignment has scope to add a junction.

 

[MarkyT]

Further north, those changes are being included fairly early in the design phase and before Parliamentary powers are applied for, so making changes is not trivial but a lot easier than later in the process. The recent Infrastructure Commission report is also suggesting more radical change such as prioritising NPR over HS2 eastern leg, which is still possible but should have been looked at several years ago before commitments were made and expectations set.

Unfortunately it's far too late to make changes around Birmingham, as it has powers and construction contracts are let. I doubt a spur from Curzon Street to Camp Hill was ever possible in the space available, but a link to allow trains from the north to continue via New Street would probably have been. It isn't now though, unless by happenstance the HS2 alignment has scope to add a junction.

Clearly it's too late to make changes to the existing contracts for authorised works, but if approaching two centuries of UK railway history have taught us anything, things can change once built, sometimes quite quickly afterwards. Look at how CTRL plans changed and developed for a recent example. I think a junction at the throat of Curzon Street might be feasible, especially if the Freightliner terminal could be moved a mile or two eastward to make more space. Running NE-SW services through within a mile of Birmingham city centre without stopping is crackers really. Every such path used would be one that couldn't serve the city. Trying to tack more and more aspirations onto the project now however is equally bonkers. It's vitally important we get the thing built. In parallel, appropriate authorities can start looking at and safeguarding possible changes and enhancements for the future.

 

[swt_passenger]

I could imagine a junction with the GWML.

That’s not what people are asking for, they mean a connection that allows for NE to SW through running across Birmingham, basically for the use of XC-like services...

 

[Irascible]

Yes, I don't think there's any point sending passengers from Taunton to London via HSR into the midlands - even via the 110mph B&H it's only about 100 mins for a fast. The B&H is not exactly heavily used either. If you're looking at better connectivity for the westcountry then a new line between Taunton & Penzance would help a lot more than Taunton and London.

 

[30907]

Yes, I don't think there's any point sending passengers from Taunton to London via HSR into the midlands - even via the 110mph B&H it's only about 100 mins for a fast. The B&H is not exactly heavily used either. If you're looking at better connectivity for the westcountry then a new line between Taunton & Penzance would help a lot more than Taunton and London.

I think the comment was about Birmingham-SW via OOC, but that would be scarcely quicker than existing services.