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HS2 Speed Units (MPH or km/h)

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Giugiaro

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The first high-speed rail line in the UK, connecting London to the Channel Tunnel, has the speed expressed in km/h, the same as in France, where the signalling system is based off.

With HS2 being completely within the UK, are the speeds within going to be expressed in MPH or km/h?

Supposedly trains running on HS2 should be able to extend their service further through the standard network.
So... having km/h on HS2 just to change over to MPH afterwards doesn't really make that much sense, right?
 
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mmh

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My money would be on mph, but trains on HS1 also extend onto the standard network with speeds changing from km/h to mph.
 

Speed43125

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My money would be on mph, but trains on HS1 also extend onto the standard network with speeds changing from km/h to mph.
Not anymore, it's all TVM430 with metric, although prior to CTRL, the speedos on the 373s would change to MPH when they dropped the 3rd rail shoes IIRC.

Would it be plausible for it have km/h on the HSR sections and then convert speedometer automatically to mph when leaving the In-cab Signalling sections?
 

mmh

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Not anymore, it's all TVM430 with metric, although prior to CTRL, the speedos on the 373s would change to MPH when they dropped the 3rd rail shoes IIRC.

The domestic Southeastern HS1 services run under conventional signalling and to speeds in mph when off HS1.
 

61653 HTAFC

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The Cambrian line is all in km/h due to ETCS, so presumably other routes will convert as ETCS is rolled out?

There may be some misguided resistance to that due to the E in ETCS, of course!
 

Maurice3000

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Yep, KM/h would be my assumption too. The track is designed in metric (hence the debate about whether the design speed should be reduced from 400 km/h to 360 km/h to save cost) and Network Rail is apparently still moving to metric (albeit at a glacial pace).

I remember the uproar after the Grayrigg derailment which put a spotlight on rail maintenance and Network Rail's hotchpotch of asset management. That hotchpotch included some of the track being on the books in miles, some in kilometres and some in chains. Standardising on metric makes sense, it's only 55 years after the UK switched to metric.

It obviously won't be an overnight job to measure all existing assets with modern precision but if you're building a brand new route using 21st century signalling system it's a lot easier to tackle this kind of legacy.
 

Ianno87

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The funny thing is, www.ertms.net shows there are plenty of non-'E' places that use the related ERTMS. But we 'have' to be insular!

Basically specified within Europe for standarisation, but anybody can use it (with the benefits of a system designed to a standard specification)
 

Maurice3000

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The funny thing is, www.ertms.net shows there are plenty of non-'E' places that use the related ERTMS. But we 'have' to be insular!
To be honest, in the end I don't think it matters. The Eurostar travels at a top speed of 300 KM/h, KM/h is what the signalling system tells the train and that's what the driver will see on their display. Still, Eurostar advertises the speed as 186 Mph to the British public.

I suspect that will be the same for HS2, the travelling public will never know their journey is being managed in metric units. Just like people driving on the motorway don't need to know that the motorway is maintained in metric and that a 100yd sign is actually placed at 100 metres.
 

Ianno87

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To be honest, in the end I don't think it matters. The Eurostar travels at a top speed of 300 KM/h, KM/h is what the signalling system tells the train and that's what the driver will see on their display. Still, Eurostar advertises the speed as 186 Mph to the British public.

I suspect that will be the same for HS2, the travelling public will never know their journey is being managed in metric units. Just like people driving on the motorway don't need to know that the motorway is maintained in metric and that a 100yd sign is actually placed at 100 metres.

Or, more hopefully, a higher proportion of the population fully conversant in metric measurements in the first place.
 

HowardGWR

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Just like people driving on the motorway don't need to know that the motorway is maintained in metric and that a 100yd sign is actually placed at 100 metres.
I ought to have known that but confess I didn't, or had forgotten! :wub: .
 

Maurice3000

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I ought to have known that but confess I didn't, or had forgotten! :wub: .
It makes sense if you think about it, really.

The UK switched to metric in 1965 and by the end of the 1970's most industries had fully switched. The UK is now officially a metric country, engineering and regulation are fully metric. That's why the coronavirus distance instructions are in metres and not in feet, or all building regulations in construction are fully metric.

There are very few exemptions in regulation, the best known are that draught beer (but only on tap, not in kegs, bottles or cans which are typically metric) HAS to be sold in pints, milk is allowed to be sold in pints (but not compulsory hence a lot of milk is sold litres, farmers are paid per litre) and distances and speeds in road traffic are in imperial units.

There have been complaints in parliament about estate agents selling properties in square feet despite the law prescribing square metres (and architects, house builders and carpet salespeople work in square metres so it's particularly unhelpful). The minister at the time took action by writing to the surveying sector to make sure they work in square metres. That was unhelpful too as surveyors already work in square metres but there you go.

All in all, if you design or maintain a motorway with slip roads, minimum widths, junctions, hard shoulders, distance markers, signals, maximum loads etc. etc. the regulation is in metric.
 
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janahan

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The UK switched to metric in 1965 and by the end of the 1970's most industries had fully switched. The UK is now officially a metric country, engineering and regulation are fully metric.

I have read an article on the internet (Cannot remember the link any more) which compared Canada and UK's metrification. It observed that Whilst Canada superficially presents itself as more metric country, it is still very much internally imperial, with a lot of engineering, and process still calculated in imperial units. Even in many cases food is sold in imperial. This may be due to the US influence there, but its very apparent when you go there.

The UK on the other hand appears superficially Imperial (distances, milk, draught beer, etc), and with some curious mixes, such as temperature, where media sometimes report how "hot" the wether is is presented in imperial F, whilst when reporting how cold the weather is, its reported in C. However, internally we are almost fully metric, with house/road building done in metric, even the motorway markers on the side of the motorway are actually in KM, not miles (as mentioned briefly above). Have a look next time you are on the motoway.

To be honest, I think this is very much a common sense approch to all this. Imperial units are mainly advantages in relative calulations (Jerermy Clarkson once explain in his satrical way how an american builder than build a roof based on how many "lengths" of 2x4 timber beams, without cranking out hte calculator). Metric is vital any abolute and arbitrary calculations and especially non relative calculations, where imperial calculations will be more difficult, and error prone.

I think one notable exception, to metrification is angle mesurement, although a metric unit does exist (Gradians or gon - 0 -400) computers still use Radians (a unit based on PI, where 360 degrees = 2PI) due to beign easier to work with, especially as most angle calculatiosn are relative.
 

JonasB

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I think one notable exception, to metrification is angle mesurement, although a metric unit does exist (Gradians or gon - 0 -400) computers still use Radians (a unit based on PI, where 360 degrees = 2PI) due to beign easier to work with, especially as most angle calculatiosn are relative.

The SI unit for plane angles is the radian, with degrees, minutes and seconds being non-SI units officially accepted for use with the SI.
 

AM9

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The SI unit for plane angles is the radian, with degrees, minutes and seconds being non-SI units officially accepted for use with the SI.
and of course , angle measurement isn't imperial - so effectively it is metric and accepted globally by default.
 

si404

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and of course , angle measurement isn't imperial - so effectively it is metric and accepted globally by default.
It's Mesopotamian imperial...

It's definitely not French Republican Imperial - ie the metric system - they tried, and failed, to get rid of them with their grads.

It's accepted globally, but not because it's metric (and the SI official acceptance of these non-SI units was accepting what everyone was doing), but because metric failed to replace it.
 

AE

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Imperial/English units are defined by law in terms of metric units. So, even when you think you are using Imperial/English units you are really just using a non-standard metric unit that happens to map more or less onto an old Imperial/English unit.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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imperial F

To be utterly pedantic, Fahrenheit is Polish/German/Dutch, not British at all - Daniel Gabriel Fahrenheit was born in Gdansk/Danzig and worked in The Hague.
It was however the first standardised temperature scale, first proposed in 1724.
Celsius is Swedish - Anders Celsius invented the centigrade scale in 1742, but it was not named after him until 1948.
At least we own the Kelvin temperature scale, Lord Kelvin (William Thomson) having been born in Belfast and worked in Glasgow.
 

si404

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At least we own the Kelvin temperature scale, Lord Kelvin (William Thomson) having been born in Belfast and worked in Glasgow.
And Edinburgh-born Rankine, who also worked in Glasgow (with Kelvin), names the Fahrenheit equivalent.

And there's the Newton scale - you'd have thought that we might have used the original thermometer scale rather than that foreign F or C scales. 0 at the melting/freezing point of water, 1 at body temperature, 4 at the melting point of lead (Sir Isaac was in charge of the Royal Mint, so melting metals was what he invented the thermometer for), etc (or everything multiplied by 12). On second thoughts, it's pretty obvious why it never took off... :p

Edit: Josiah Wedgwood has a scale as well - for temperatures where mercury is a gas (like in a kiln). It started at 1077.5°F as the origin and then 240 steps of 130°F above it. Copper melted at 27W, Silver at 28°W, Gold at 32°W, by his calculations. All the calculations were totally wrong. Even attempts to half all the conversions and lower the origins found that it still wasn't accurate at all.
 
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vlad

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I think one notable exception, to metrification is angle mesurement, although a metric unit does exist (Gradians or gon - 0 -400) computers still use Radians (a unit based on PI, where 360 degrees = 2PI) due to beign easier to work with, especially as most angle calculatiosn are relative.

You have to use radians to measure angles - calculus doesn't work at all if you don't.
 

AM9

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It's Mesopotamian imperial...

It's definitely not French Republican Imperial - ie the metric system - they tried, and failed, to get rid of them with their grads.

It's accepted globally, but not because it's metric (and the SI official acceptance of these non-SI units was accepting what everyone was doing), but because metric failed to replace it.
I didn't mean that historically it was 'metric', but the dominant measurement system globally now is metric (as in SI), and it is officially part of SI standards. Furthermore, angular velocity is formally defined as 'ω' (for those that are using devices that can't display greek characters, the lower case omega letter looks like a curvy 'w' - some say like a rounded posterior). Thus rpm or more importantly in electrical situations, hertz (cycles per second) are often expressed as 2πω or (read as 2 pi omega).
 

si404

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is officially part of SI standards.
Degrees (in the 360 in a circle sense, rather than other degrees like degrees Celsius) are an officially tolerated non-SI unit. Doesn't make it metric, or SI...
 

gsnedders

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Would it be plausible for it have km/h on the HSR sections and then convert speedometer automatically to mph when leaving the In-cab Signalling sections?
If it's a digital speedometer, sure! You could even have all the speed limits displayed in-cab in mph, there's no technical reason they need to be km/h, as it's perfectly possible for the on-board computer to convert the data it recieves from the balises.
 

Western Lord

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Imperial fans can take comfort from the fact that some things are in Imperial measurements and will probably never change. Specifically air traffic control uses thousands of feet for flight levels and separation and the humble shipping container is fixed at 8 feet wide by 8 feet ( or 9ft 6in) high by 20, 30 or 40 feet long (any change to that would require every container ship and container handling crane to be rebuilt). Of course in sea and air navigation the nautical mile is used, not kilometres, and speed is measured in knots.
 

AM9

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Imperial fans can take comfort from the fact that some things are in Imperial measurements and will probably never change. Specifically air traffic control uses thousands of feet for flight levels and separation and the humble shipping container is fixed at 8 feet wide by 8 feet ( or 9ft 6in) high by 20, 30 or 40 feet long (any change to that would require every container ship and container handling crane to be rebuilt). Of course in sea and air navigation the nautical mile is used, not kilometres, and speed is measured in knots.
The continuation of air traffic altitude measurements in feet is a by-product of US domination in aviation.
Ironically, the Nautical Mile is more in the concept of metric linear measurement in that it is derived from a physical dimension of the earth. In reality, it has no connection with a statute mile other than by part of it's given name.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The continuation of air traffic altitude measurements in feet is a by-product of US domination in aviation.
Ironically, the Nautical Mile is more in the concept of metric linear measurement in that it is derived from a physical dimension of the earth. In reality, it has no connection with a statute mile other than by part of it's given name.

And it links into the sexagesimal angular measures by being the distance subtended by 1 arc minute of latitude (or longitude at the equator).
It isn't in any sense an imperial measure.
 

si404

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It isn't in any sense an imperial measure.
Other than literally being invented by the Brits when Empire building...

Arguably it's the most Imperial unit there is. And the first target of the metric system, which hated the sexagesimal angular measurements.

Metric started by replacing the nautical mile with the kilometre (well, OK, it started with the centimetre), which is a centigrad of arc (not that there was a gradian at that point) - instead of a sixtieth of a nintieth of a quarter of the earth's circumference, metric's initial move was to replace it with a hundredth of a hundredth of a quarter. Before the pound or the minute (and they did try there) or the gallon, the metric system came up with a replacement for the nautical mile.

Sure, the abject failure of gradians to replace degrees meant that metric started tolerating the nautical mile after about 120 years (about 110 years ago), but it isn't part of the metric system and was deliberately targeted by the metric system for replacement right from the get go.
 
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