Hs2 what about making the trains look like the APT?

[richieb1971]

Its a British design and still looks good. I think its a debt we should oay the designers. What do you think?

 

[Cowley]

This could be interesting .

 

[DenmarkRail]

Siemens ICE style trains

 

[Ash Bridge]

I agree with you it does look good, but it also now looks rather dated and of its era, it also doesn't exactly take advantage of the rather more generous loading gauge that will be available on the new route either does it? And that's just for starters....

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Eurostar (class 373) is at least partially a British design - the team involved senior GEC people working with Alsthom before they formally joined forces to become GEC-Alsthom and then Alstom.
I think the styling team was also mainly British.
It was also designed for 300km/h non-tilt operation, unlike APT.
But I doubt the Eurostar design carries much weight in Alstom these days.

I doubt the HS2 bidders will have any constraints on train appearance, and you'd expect designs to be developed from their current high-speed models.
So Alstom would likely do you an AGV derivative, Bombardier a Zefiro, Siemens a Velaro, Talgo a 350 Pato etc, downsized for operation on the WCML.
The technical specs (and interoperability with NR infrastructure) will be far more important than the appearance.
Things like articulation would also determine some of the characteristics.
DfT (HS2 Ltd) will be the purchaser, not the WCP TOC.
But we are assured it will all be "world class".

 

[richieb1971]

Rather disappointed in the responses. The train could be made 1.25x bigger if necessary. Dont agree with the dated statement and i dont agree we should have a foreign design on the shell. Dont care what power unit it has.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Eurostar (class 373) is at least partially a British design - the team involved senior GEC people working with Alsthom before they formally joined forces to become GEC-Alsthom and then Alstom.
I think the styling team was also mainly British.
It was also designed for 300km/h non-tilt operation, unlike APT.
But I doubt the Eurostar design carries much weight in Alstom these days.

Class 373 was simply a TGV redesigned (where necessary) to fit our loading gauge. Indeed when it became clear the NoL sets would never be needed for their intended purpose and their ECML use was seen to be operationally "inconvenient" SNCF was perfectly happy to use them as part of the LGV Nord fleet.

Rather disappointed in the responses. The train could be made 1.25x bigger if necessary. Dont agree with the dated statement and i dont agree we should have a foreign design on the shell. Dont care what power unit it has.

Why on earth would anyone want to do that? High-speed trains don't come cheap. The HS2 fleet will be as off-the-shelf as it will be possible to get bearing in mind the need to fit the Classic Compatibles within our loading gauge. And why should we pay a premium just to ensure a home designed (and presumably built) train? Do people or organisations routinely avoid buying imports for such fuzzy reasons? The only area where such thinking has any excuse is National Defence. And yet thousands of jobs in this country depend on persuading other countries to buy military hardware from us.

 

[MarkyT]

Rather disappointed in the responses. The train could be made 1.25x bigger if necessary. Dont agree with the dated statement and i dont agree we should have a foreign design on the shell. Dont care what power unit it has.

Which version of APT appearance would you prefer? The E or P style?

 

[bavvo]

I would expect aerodynamics, noise and stability to be the highest priorities given the speeds it is going to run at. So the likeliest shape would be similar to the newest Shinkanesns (long nosed, 'duck billed'). The APT is much too blunt for that sort of speed. Of course they could go for the InterCity colour scheme if they get bitten by the nostalgia bug...

 

[Dave_Cardboard]

Notwithstanding that APT was designed by aircraft engineers, one can't help but think that aerodynamic design has evolved greatly in the last 40 years and modern train operating companies are going to want take advantage to reduce energy usage (and thus cost) as much as possible. Not to mention noise.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Richie on a recent visit to the NRM I was looking at a model of BRs proposed IC250/class 93 train intended for the West Coast route which I think was sadly killed off by looming privatisation in about 1992. Now if you had put that design forward over the APT-P I for one would have definitely agreed with you purely on looks, even today it looks the part (at least to my eyes) with the front end style having shades of the class 373 & Thalys TGVs, in fact it makes you wonder if Alsthom borrowed some design cues from the BR train when designing the latter?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Rather disappointed in the responses. The train could be made 1.25x bigger if necessary. Dont agree with the dated statement and i dont agree we should have a foreign design on the shell. Dont care what power unit it has.

EU and WTO rules prevent dictating who designs/builds trains being procured by a public (or private) body.
The owners of the APT design will be Bombardier, but they are just one of 5 short-listed bidders.
Do you really think Bombardier are going to dig up a 50-year-old design for a solution to hugely more advanced requirements?
They will go to their Zefira high-speed team (deliveries already in Italy and China and elsewhere).
The trains may or may not be built in Derby, but they won't look like 370s.
http://www.bombardier.com/en/transp...s/rail-vehicles/high-speed-trains/zefiro.html

The other 4 bidders have at least an equal chance of winning the order with their own internal designs.
Like Bombardier they will have to meet the DfT spec, and the "best value" wins.

 

[D365]

HS2 (like HS1 before it) can be considered for all intents and purposes an LGV line. “Captive” 400m rolling stock is going to be off-the-shelf.

The “classic-compatible” stock will be more customised, but I don’t think it’s going to look that different. Besides, I have no idea why they would design their stock to evoke memories of the critically panned APT of the 80s. Surely you’d rather style it after the HST, if anything?

P.S. This thread should really be titled differently, it reads like a serious proposal

 

[MarkyT]

HS2 (like HS1 before it) can be considered for all intents and purposes an LGV line. “Captive” 400m rolling stock is going to be off-the-shelf.

Even so called 'off the shelf' stock can often be offered with a degree of customisation in such elements as detailed front end designs and detailing, although by definition these will be guided and limited by the state of the art with respect to aerodynamics and structural integrity. Look at manufacturers publicity and they will often make some play on this ability. I love the look of the APT-P and pride of place on my shelf at home is one of those undistributed travel agents' models of the units that BR produced which I obtained from the old collectors corner at Euston. I'm under no illusion that the detailed nose shape is in any way suitable for the higher speeds proposed for HS2 however!

 

[Cowley]

I love the look of the APT-P and pride of place on my shelf at home is one of those undistributed travel agents' models of the units that BR produced which I obtained from the old collectors corner at Euston. I'm under no illusion that the detailed nose shape is in any way suitable for the higher speeds proposed for HS2 however!

I’d completely forgotten about them! What a nice thing to have.

 

[richieb1971]

It seems as usual my post reads like an april fools joke. If there is a british flag on any hs2 train the joke is on you my friends. The fastest trains on the fastest network in the country and its all built to foreign design. One more reason for brits to hate hs2. For 50 billion you would think it would be open season for ideas.

 

[TheAdelante]

It seems as usual my post reads like an april fools joke. If there is a british flag on any hs2 train the joke is on you my friends. The fastest trains on the fastest network in the country and its all built to foreign design. One more reason for brits to hate hs2. For 50 billion you would think it would be open season for ideas.

I hate to say it but it’s true: the British don’t make very good trains that are suitable for this day and age really...

 

[D365]

It seems as usual my post reads like an april fools joke.

If anything it’s reading a bit xenophobic...

 

[fowler9]

I loved the APT but it does look extremely dated next to modern high speed trains in other parts of the world.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Err... one of the reasons APT sets look like they do is because they tilt. It is a matter of record that HS2 sets will not be required to tilt (both captives and compatibles - though that raises some serious issues about trying to path them north of Wigan) so automatically the compromises made in APT are unnecessary. The potential train builders are going to have enough challenges meeting the current spec. without any further additions.

 

[richieb1971]

Can someone please post a pic of a train that makes the apt "look" outdated. Id love to see it. The nose is the most identified part if the train so lets stick with that part first. The duck bills are not pleasing to the eye imo. The 800 is just rounder it doesnt look 21st century to me. The 800 is hardly an a4 moment.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

It seems as usual my post reads like an april fools joke. If there is a british flag on any hs2 train the joke is on you my friends. The fastest trains on the fastest network in the country and its all built to foreign design. One more reason for brits to hate hs2. For 50 billion you would think it would be open season for ideas.

HS2 Ltd reveals rolling stock contract shortlist

"Alstom Transport, Bombardier Transportation UK, Hitachi Rail Europe, Patentes Talgo and Siemens."

Does that actually miss out any UK train builders who could handle such a contract?

 

[class387]

Can someone please post a pic of a train that makes the apt "look" outdated. Id love to see it. The nose is the most identified part if the train so lets stick with that part first. The duck bills are not pleasing to the eye imo. The 800 is just rounder it doesnt look 21st century to me. The 800 is hardly an a4 moment.

Was going on this in China last week. Doesn't look bad to me:



(There are many more examples, this is just one that is easiest to upload at this time)

 

[MarkyT]

We haven't got an 'indigenous' high speed train industry in UK, but what does that means anyway? In train manufacturing no company today is truly limited in ownership to one nation or even continent. An exception might be Stadler which appears to be mostly in the hands of one Swiss individual, and there may be some French state holdings in Alstom. Otherwise publicly listed companies wherever their head office is are intrinsically international in the modern World. Whichever international firm gets the HS2 order there is possibility the trains may be manufactured in UK, at least partially, or assembled here. Bombardier is only British in the sense it occupies one of the last major works in Derby that was previously operated by BREL; it is actually based in Canada. No different really to Hitachi's new plant in County Durham.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Was going on this in China last week. Doesn't look bad to me:

Looks like it exceeds the maximum nose overhang specified by HS2 (4.2m I think)

 

[class387]

Looks like it exceeds the maximum nose overhang specified by HS2 (4.2m I think)

It probably does - I wasn't suggesting this for HS2, just posting a train that looks more modern than the APT as the OP requested. I probably could have just posted an Electrostar though.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

It probably does - I wasn't suggesting this for HS2, just posting a train that looks more modern than the APT as the OP requested. I probably could have just posted an Electrostar though.

No criticism intended - just making the point that you cannot simply say "I want one like that" (to paraphrase Andy).

 

[richieb1971]

Well, looking at pictures from all over the globe of futuristic trains I Can't see anything I like more than the current HS1 crop. I don't like the colours much from the old stock and there doesn't seem to be any HS2 branding online to give away a colour scheme that the new trains might be.

That Chinese train above looks ok. The one thing that bothers me about it is the lack of conventional headlights. Lights and lighting is something that makes something look futuristic and modern. The APT looked the part.

As for the lack of tilt, surely that is a good thing. If the track is long and straight the train just needs multi wheel drive, OHLE and a lot of horse power. Its going to go fast no matter what it looks like on the outside. In fact you might as well put a jet engine on the back with a big muffler (joke).

I am not xenophobic, I love foreign things I have bought foreign all my life. As for cheap, name something that is only British built that is cheap? Cars (Rolls Royce, Mclaren, Range Rovers).. Not a lot of cheapness there. But then, if you want Primark prices you might get Primark quality. Do countries sell their creme de le creme examples of trains to other countries? Or do they give them watered down versions?

 

[class387]

The lights on the APT do not look modern and probably aren't good aerodynamically either. I don't know what you mean by 'conventional headlights', the CR400 still has headlights, just a different shape and position.

 

[fowler9]

Can someone please post a pic of a train that makes the apt "look" outdated. Id love to see it. The nose is the most identified part if the train so lets stick with that part first. The duck bills are not pleasing to the eye imo. The 800 is just rounder it doesnt look 21st century to me. The 800 is hardly an a4 moment.

Ah come on mate, if you stuck an APT next to any number of modern high speed trains it will look dated, especially ones that run on dedicated high speed routes. I can't believe you are serious. That doesn't mean I don't like the APT. As much as I love older trains and the way they look you have to admit that modern streamlining also makes trains more economical and reduces wind noise.