Hs2 what about making the trains look like the APT?

[fowler9]

I used to think the duck-bill Shinkansens look awful, but after seeing them in person I quite like them now. That Chinese train for me is easily the best looking train in the world, if not my favourite train in general.

Yeah I used to think they look a bit daft. Not seen one in the flesh alas although Japan is on the list to visit. Isn't there something similar in Spain? I am far from the expert any more, may be easier for me to get to Spain on the current wage, I have focused on central and eastern Europe for all of my recent trips.

 

[class387]

Not really. The Talgo also has a duck bill but looks nowhere near as good and probably not as nice to ride either.



Air China do quite a cheap multi city for Beijing and Tokyo so you could do that and see the high-speed development in both countries if you want, especially with 6 days visa free in China now.

 

[fowler9]

Not really. The Talgo also has a duck bill but looks nowhere near as good and probably not as nice to ride either.

View attachment 41239

Air China do quite a cheap multi city for Beijing and Tokyo so you could do that and see the high-speed development in both countries if you want, especially with 6 days visa free in China now.

My god that is a face only a mother could love. Thanks for the travel advice though.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I think the OP might need to remove his/her severely rose-tinted spectacles and realise that modern high-speed train design starts with the fundamental engineering requirements and designs a shape that will achieve these as efficiently as possible, optimising cost, weight and energy. As soon as you take the 'draw a shape, make it work afterwards' approach, you're an architect / concept artist not an engineer.

The APT was a shape designed in the 1960s for a top speed of 160mph, in the days before computer modelling (of any high standard) was available to calculate complex air flows, turbulence etc. The HST was developed around the same time and testing was limited to use of models in wind tunnels, which ultimately redesigned the nose cone shape from the prototype to the production power car. However whilst the Class 43 and APT are 'streamlined', neither would come anywhere near the optimal shape required for an HS2 train designed for 225mph. For one thing, the vortex under the nose would be horrendous and impose a severe drag, with a massive energy cost. There is a reason why modern designs (Shinkansen, AGV etc) have flattened front ends.

Perhaps also remember that in originally designing HST and APT, British Rail were attempting to ape the Japanese Shinkansen's 125mph train from the 1960s. Obviously it turned out very different as a design and a train, but it's not as if we lead the world or anything, other than briefly producing the world's fastest conventional diesel train. Dare I say it, but as a member of the current younger generation, I can't stand hearing 'British is best' without any rational logic or reason to back the argument up, except some misguided sense of backward-looking patriotism. If our common sense extends to 'it looks nice and has a Union Jack therefore it must be a winner' then we've finally gone and turned into America.

 

[work-traveller]

The original visualisation for East West Rail was clearly was based on the APT:

 

[Roast Veg]

Dare I say it, but as a member of the current younger generation, I can't stand hearing 'British is best' without any rational logic or reason to back the argument up, except some misguided sense of backward-looking patriotism. If our common sense extends to 'it looks nice and has a Union Jack therefore it must be a winner' then we've finally gone and turned into America.

I'm with you on that sentiment completely, this entire thread could have been avoided if people could value designs more objectively instead of pasting their own jingoism over the top of it.

 

[swaldman]

And why should we pay a premium just to ensure a home designed (and presumably built) train? Do people or organisations routinely avoid buying imports for such fuzzy reasons?

TfL did, paying a vast premium to have the bespoke New Bus For London rather than off-the-shelf designs. (not actually an import/not-import choice, but I think analogous in there being no good reason for it)

 

[Deerfold]

If there is a british flag on any hs2 train the joke is on you my friends. The fastest trains on the fastest network in the country and its all built to foreign design. One more reason for brits to hate hs2. For 50 billion you would think it would be open season for ideas.

Why is something being foreign a reason to hate it? I think for that sort of money they want to get the best they can from professionals.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

TfL did, paying a vast premium to have the bespoke New Bus For London rather than off-the-shelf designs. (not actually an import/not-import choice, but I think analogous in there being no good reason for it)

TfL got the NBL because Boris told them to, not because they thought it was a good idea.

 

[whhistle]

Would this fit the bill if it had come to fruition?

The 93 looks like an HST with a beard net on...

 

[Xenon]

Would look extremely dated in my opinion, to the extend that our trains would be a laughing stock in the eyes of mainland Europe.

 

[squizzler]

A better place to sneak one in would be in sequels to sci-fi first made in the 1970s and 1980s and whose aesthetic is contemporary to APT. If a studio wanted to borrow it for filming, I reckon the somewhat less than perfectly preserved APT from Crewe would look very appropriate next to the battered rebel spacecraft in Star Wars or in the jaded future dystopia of blade runner!

 

[Cowley]

A better place to sneak one in would be in sequels to sci-fi first made in the 1970s and 1980s and whose aesthetic is contemporary to APT. If a studio wanted to borrow it for filming, I reckon the somewhat less than perfectly preserved APT from Crewe would look very appropriate next to the battered rebel spacecraft in Star Wars or in the jaded future dystopia of blade runner!

Very true.
Perhaps throw in a few Sinclair C5s too...

 

[BananaRepublic]

HS2 have already outlined what they're looking for in the new HS2 trains (classic compatible).
It's a step up from anything currently in use on HS lines elsewhere in the world.

For example, minimising environmental noise is one of the key design requirements of the new HS2 trains.
They will be operated at faster speeds than any other HS rail service in the world, with aerodynamic and energy efficiency also very high on the agenda.
HS2 are calling for innovation from the bidders, so expect something quite different.

Other key criteria include a closely linked train/platform interface, automatic train despatch and automatic train control to achieve the 18 tph on phase 1.
An off-the-shelf design will not meet the requirements.

 

[backontrack]

Richie on a recent visit to the NRM I was looking at a model of BRs proposed IC250/class 93 train intended for the West Coast route which I think was sadly killed off by looming privatisation in about 1992. Now if you had put that design forward over the APT-P I for one would have definitely agreed with you purely on looks, even today it looks the part (at least to my eyes) with the front end style having shades of the class 373 & Thalys TGVs, in fact it makes you wonder if Alsthom borrowed some design cues from the BR train when designing the latter?

My words, the Class 93 looks gorgeous!

 

[Ash Bridge]

My words, the Class 93 looks gorgeous!

Doesn't it just!....if only....

 

[backontrack]

Doesn't it just!....if only....

Yeah, it's sad really. I think many people would have preferred them to Pendolini.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Yeah, it's sad really. I think many people would have preferred them to Pendolini.

I seem to have a recollection that the mk5 coaches that would have operated with these were to be 26 metres in length as are today's IET 8xx vehicles, then again I could be confusing this with mk4s.

 

[backontrack]

I seem to have a recollection that the mk5 coaches that would have operated with these were to be 26 metres in length as are today's IET 8xx vehicles, then again I could be confusing this with mk4s.

A shame we never got those either.

 

[najaB]

What do you think?

If it's the best design for the job then go for it, but if there's a design that's more cost effective or technically capable then go with that. Form has to be driven primarily by function - if it works right it'll look right but the opposite isn't true.