HS2 - Your ideal rolling stock

Clansman

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Intrigued to hear your views on HS2 in terms of how you envisage your ideal rolling stock.

Stepping back from reality a little bit;

For me it would be a UK version the of the TGV Duplex, with 12 coaches (9 standard, 3 first) with 1 buffet car. The TGV Duplex is almost perfect in many ways for the passenger comfort wise, from comfy seats with decent legroom and table space, to window alignment.

Ultimitley though;
Could it happen?... In theory yes
Will it happen?... No
What will probably happen?... We'll have a Hitachi train with a flashy Virgin-esque nickname, small seats with poor window alignments, poor legroom, no buffet car, minimal first class difference to standard, poor luggage space, almost no full tables seats, and high fares.
 
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Clansman

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Except for Scotland services would a buffet really be worthwhile? your talking max 80-90 minute journeys.
Giving the fact that existing services of similar times (London to Birmingham etc) then it would be a real downgrade in service to not atleast have an onboard shop. On journeys of the time scale you've stated where buffet cars are used, it seems to be very popular and I imagine this would be the same instance if it were on HS2
 

The Ham

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I could see that there could be a need for a buffet, given that at least in the early years there would be no need maximise seating.

However, even if it goes to at seat service there would need be a minimum of two trollies (one first class and one standard class) just due to the potential number of people on a full length train.

I have previously suggested that business pods could be a good option, they each hold 4 seats and a table. They would be sold on a per pod price set at about the same cost as 3 first class tickets. I could see that business could find them useful so as to enable staff to prepare together for the meeting that they are on route to, or could allow an additional meeting to happen on route.
 

Bletchleyite

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3+2 seating is unacceptable full stop.

I would envisage a faster, electric-only version of IEP. I'm strongly of the view that captive stock is unnecessary and reduces flexibility until the full route is built so no classic compatible services are needed at all.

In a more "blue sky" scenario where this had happened...Velaro-Ds to DB spec but with improved 2nd class window alignment.
 
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jon0844

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Isn't this what the 442s are destined to work out their days on?

Third rail would also save on expensive overhead wiring.
 

NSEFAN

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I can't imagine mixing the 140mph Pendolino stock with the captive stock would be good for capacity. Pendos are best kept on the existing WCML as this is what they were designed for, esp. with the tilt functionality.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I can't imagine mixing the 140mph Pendolino stock with the captive stock would be good for capacity. Pendos are best kept on the existing WCML as this is what they were designed for, esp. with the tilt functionality.
Allegedly, there won't be any captive stock., it will all be classic-compatible, at least initially
Also the DfT was suggesting that 390s could be recycled to other routes after HS2 stock had taken over many services.
I'm not being really serious, but you never know what constraints on spending there might be when the time comes.
The WCP bids will have to square the circle somehow, and combining HS2 and WCML operation might be attractive early in HS2's life (say until phase 2b opens).
 
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HSTEd

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400m long TGV Duplex with 18 intermediate trailers, some of which will have powered bogies [the end cars and some of the cars in the middle using AGV transformers in all likelyhood].

1350+ seats.

Maximum Capacity.
 

daikilo

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400m long TGV Duplex with 18 intermediate trailers, some of which will have powered bogies [the end cars and some of the cars in the middle using AGV transformers in all likelyhood].

1350+ seats.

Maximum Capacity.
More likely the elusive AGV double-deck, but what happens when they fall off the end of the HS2 core (a moving target for many years, and assuming it is not built to UK gauge)? I fear we will see a not-so-HS operation for many years as older UK gauge stock is used off the core.
 

J-2739

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400m long TGV Duplex with 18 intermediate trailers, some of which will have powered bogies [the end cars and some of the cars in the middle using AGV transformers in all likelyhood].

1350+ seats.

Maximum Capacity.
Yes, same with me, though I'd think of a Shinkansen MAX instead, as it has less gangways.

As long as the 3+2 seats are comfy, then all is well. :)
 

tsangpogorge

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Imagine this completely hypothetical situation: there's a hard Brexit and EU countries impose tariffs on UK exports and we retaliate with our own import duties, faced with such trade barriers foreign rolling stock manufacturers like Bomabardier, Hitachi, Alstom etc who have significant operations here abandon ship. Basically can we turn back the clock and design plus manufacture a new class of 'high speed train' (mostly) indigenously, do we still have the knowledge, expertise, facilities and financial power for such an ambitious undertaking? I should add that I'm aware that even during the BREL/GEC days there were foreign component manufacturers in the supply chain which is why I said 'mostly' indigenous.
 

matacaster

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Imagine this completely hypothetical situation: there's a hard Brexit and EU countries impose tariffs on UK exports and we retaliate with our own import duties, faced with such trade barriers foreign rolling stock manufacturers like Bomabardier, Hitachi, Alstom etc who have significant operations here abandon ship. Basically can we turn back the clock and design plus manufacture a new class of 'high speed train' (mostly) indigenously, do we still have the knowledge, expertise, facilities and financial power for such an ambitious undertaking? I should add that I'm aware that even during the BREL/GEC days there were foreign component manufacturers in the supply chain which is why I said 'mostly' indigenous.
If we impose tariffs of say 10% against EU foreign train manufacturers, then we either
a) accept the higher price that they now charge -if we do they sure as hell won't leave, trust me.
b) buy from non EU countries at more favourable rates as we could negotiate no or lower tariffs between our individual nations - japan, usa, korea?
c) make our own trains - This may be a very good option as it will help to reestablish a proper manufacturing base in this country something that has been a victim of both free trade and the EU. Yes, some knowledge has been lost, but we are a resourceful country and train manufacturing isn't quite rocket science. Those EU companies in the UK are hardly likely to take all or indeed any of their staff (if there isn't freedom of movement) to europe, so presumably those experienced staff would be taken on by an entrepreneurial compnay existing or otherwise.
 

HSTEd

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Yes, same with me, though I'd think of a Shinkansen MAX instead, as it has less gangways.

As long as the 3+2 seats are comfy, then all is well. :)
Shinkansen loading gauge is too wide for HS2 unfortunately.
Otherwise I would suggest that.
 

MarkyT

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DimTim

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For the classic compatible how will the terrain off HS2 affect the design?

On HS2 we are trundling along at 250 mph but off the high speed line the design will need to climb beattock, accelerate away from Morpeth & other curves, TSR's etc.

The class 91 are supposedly great on the East Coast with their cruising speed but not so good on regular stopping services requiring acceleration. Will this impact gearing issues?
 

HSTEd

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The middle seat might be worse than the others but it is cheaper than not having one. 2+2 costs more to provide after all in terms of cost per seat
 

The Ham

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No, all is not well with 3+2 seating in any form. The middle seat is bad, even if it's wide enough.
Other modes of travel cope with seats in blocks of 3's, there are loads of long haul airlines that have them. Now that's not to say that they are good, but rather to say that a lot of people do use them with relatively little complaint.
 

Bevan Price

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I suspect that HS2 "classic-compatible" trains will be no longer than a 11 coach Pendolino, because many WCML stations cannot accommodate anything longer without expensive rebuilding. Hopefully they will have a much lower proportion of first class than the 390s.

If they build any "HS2 exclusive" trains, they can be longer, but will need to be confined to the new HS2 stations.

I fear however that they may do something stupid and also build some "half-length" classic compatibles, e.g. for some routes not serving London .
 

bavvo

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No, all is not well with 3+2 seating in any form. The middle seat is bad, even if it's wide enough.
There is an advantage when the train is only moderately loaded. No one likes the middle seat, so if you sit in the aisle or window in a bank of 3 there is a good chance you won't have someone right next to you. I've seen people stand rather than use the middle seat. Still sub optimal though...

Having said that, in my head though I always consider 2+3 to be 3rd class (except without 3rd class pricing). In fact as a rule of thumb, 2+1 should be minimum spec for 1st class, 2+2 2nd and 2+3 3rd.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Articulated stock please.

Like comparing the new E320s with E300s

Old articulated stock much smoother and safer in an accident.

Totally agree. I would be shocked if it isn't.
 

Ironside

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Ideal stock would be something like the AGV but longer. 2+2 in economy, 2+1 business and 1+1 in first: ratios fitting demand ( being a ideal scenario). A bar and sandwich stand, a meeting room and a family room (takes 3-5 families as priority or bookable seating where kids can runaround without annoying other passengers). As demand increases double decker trains used to increase capacity.
 

Kettledrum

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Imagine this completely hypothetical situation: there's a hard Brexit and EU countries impose tariffs on UK exports and we retaliate with our own import duties, faced with such trade barriers foreign rolling stock manufacturers like Bomabardier, Hitachi, Alstom etc who have significant operations here abandon ship..
abandon ship?????

In the case of train building, Do Bombardier, Hitachi and Alstom export much from the UK to Europe then?

If not then the trade barriers might work the other way and encourage trains made for the British market to be made here.
 

Bletchleyite

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Other modes of travel cope with seats in blocks of 3's, there are loads of long haul airlines that have them. Now that's not to say that they are good, but rather to say that a lot of people do use them with relatively little complaint.
People put up with whatever discomfort is necessary on flights, because normally for those journeys there is little or no competition - you fly or you don't go (long overland journeys are not a practical alternative for most people). Whereas for the train, there is almost always the option of the car instead.

Meanwhile, where train and plane compete (primarily London to Scotland in the UK) a lot of people choose train precisely because a 3+3 aircraft isn't a lot of fun.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ideal stock would be something like the AGV but longer. 2+2 in economy, 2+1 business and 1+1 in first: ratios fitting demand ( being a ideal scenario). A bar and sandwich stand, a meeting room and a family room (takes 3-5 families as priority or bookable seating where kids can runaround without annoying other passengers). As demand increases double decker trains used to increase capacity.
A "premium economy" probably is worth some thought - though I'd go for the idea of 2+2 but with First Class standards of legroom, full window alignment, lots of tables and leather seats.
 
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J-2739

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Ideal stock would be something like the AGV but longer. 2+2 in economy, 2+1 business and 1+1 in first: ratios fitting demand ( being a ideal scenario). A bar and sandwich stand, a meeting room and a family room (takes 3-5 families as priority or bookable seating where kids can runaround without annoying other passengers). As demand increases double decker trains used to increase capacity.
1+1 seating is a waste of valuable space, giving this is a high speed commuter service.
Meanwhile, where train and plane compete (primarily London to Scotland in the UK) a lot of people choose train precisely because a 3+3 aircraft isn't a lot of fun.
Isn't it because there is less hassle to using the train than the plane, rather than of seating?
 
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