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HS4 and a rail lik from Britain to Ireland

Mgameing123

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That's really interesting. I can't see how the journey could be significantly less than 4 hours even with HS2 being extended to Crewe. Eurostar is limited to 60mph through the tunnel because of the other traffic. That speed limit would mean Holyhead - Dublin would take nearly an hour. Upgrading the existing alignment between Crewe and Holyhead and HS2 phase 2a returning might make 3 hours 50 minutes possible.

The wider strategic position gets ignored by these proposals. While Irish politicians get very annoyed when Britain diverges from Ireland, Ireland's main strategic goal for over a century is diverging from Britain. A tunnel would go against the goal of diversifying trade. It's not something any Irish government would stump up €10-20bn to pay half of.
I think it would be better to build a seperate high speed line from Holyhead to somewhere on HS2. London - Dublin would be major corridor for passenger and freight services. The tunnel would help better connect Ireland with Mainland Europe boosting economic productivity. But this tunnel would become the longest underwater tunnel so it will take alot of engineering and research to make sure this happens and its definitely going to go over budget.
 
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deltic

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I think it would be better to build a seperate high speed line from Holyhead to somewhere on HS2. London - Dublin would be major corridor for passenger and freight services. The tunnel would help better connect Ireland with Mainland Europe boosting economic productivity. But this tunnel would become the longest underwater tunnel so it will take alot of engineering and research to make sure this happens and its definitely going to go over budget.
With the UK outside the EU lots of freight now goes direct to the continent from Ireland by ferry. Few benefits if any would accure to a slightly faster land route.
 

Dennyboy

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I think it would be better to build a seperate high speed line from Holyhead to somewhere on HS2. London - Dublin would be major corridor for passenger and freight services. The tunnel would help better connect Ireland with Mainland Europe boosting economic productivity. But this tunnel would become the longest underwater tunnel so it will take alot of engineering and research to make sure this happens and its definitely going to go over budget.
Yes, Projects Running Over-budget is no new found phenomenon nor is for Contractors to dissolve mid-project. But is there no type of Indemnity (eg Insurance Policy) that can be entered into for an agreed fee/premium?
 

poffle

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With the UK outside the EU lots of freight now goes direct to the continent from Ireland by ferry. Few benefits if any would accure to a slightly faster land route.
I think one benefit would be that you could run through freight trains from Ireland to mainland Europe in affectively sealed trains so the individual containers would not need detailed customs declarations. However my impression is that the lorries have gradually being going back to the land bridge route via GB with Windsor framework and repeated postponement of full customs checks in GB.

If building a new route I would suggest that Merseyside rather than Crewe would be the obvious place to head for. Crossing the Dee and Mersey were big issues in the 1800s when the existing rail networks were being built. Less so nowadays.

The main driver would be to reduce air travel. Dublin - London is one of largest international city pairs in the world for air traffic. ( Second largest in 2016, largest in Europe. Most of the big city pairs are national rather than international )

Essentially aviation still has no realistic decarbonisation strategy. Sustainable Aviation Fuel isn't really decarbonisation.

Still no chance of it being economically viable.
 

stevieinselby

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I think it would be better to build a seperate high speed line from Holyhead to somewhere on HS2.
That's all very well until you look at the geography of North Wales.
There's a good reason why the railway line and the main road hug the coast, and that's because going anywhere further inland is really hilly and totally unsuitable for building high speed rail.
 

Bald Rick

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Eurostar is limited to 60mph through the tunnel because of the other traffic

Err, Eurostars travel at 100mph through the Channel Tunnel. Hence why they are typically timed at 19 minutes for the 31 miles.

And a UK - ROI tunnel would have far less ‘other traffic’ to get in the way than the Channel Tunnel.
 

Chester1

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Err, Eurostars travel at 100mph through the Channel Tunnel. Hence why they are typically timed at 19 minutes for the 31 miles.

And a UK - ROI tunnel would have far less ‘other traffic’ to get in the way than the Channel Tunnel.

Oh, I remembered it takes about 20 minutes but should have checked. 100mph would still be over half an hour before considering slowing down or accelerating at Dublin the end. The current Holyhead trains take about 3 hours 40 minutes. If reinstated HS2 phase 2a would cut that about 35 minutes. London - Dublin wouldn't be substantially less than 4 hours. Maybe 3 hours 40 minutes.

The timings don't affect the wider situation. It's just not in either government's interests even if the finances stack up one day. Every Irish government will try to diversify its trade away from GB. It's not in a Westminster government's interest to spend a fortune on a tunnel that could one day connect two foreign countries.
 

Mgameing123

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That's all very well until you look at the geography of North Wales.
There's a good reason why the railway line and the main road hug the coast, and that's because going anywhere further inland is really hilly and totally unsuitable for building high speed rail.
Well now looking at it. It’s better to not build a tunnel from Holyhead to Dublin and rather do Fishguard to Wexford. It would be much shorter.
 

zwk500

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Well now looking at it. It’s better to not build a tunnel from Holyhead to Dublin and rather do Fishguard to Wexford. It would be much shorter.
Have a look at the geography of South Wales and South East Ireland now. There's a reason these things haven't been looked at beyond a cursory feasibility study.
 

stevieinselby

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Well now looking at it. It’s better to not build a tunnel from Holyhead to Dublin and rather do Fishguard to Wexford. It would be much shorter.
It's still going to be a challenging route to build as high speed, both on the UK side and the Irish side.
The only advantage is that you combine it with a HS route to Bristol, Cardiff and Swansea so there's some synergy there – but in doing so you make it unattractive for the large populations of the West Midlands and the North West.
The crossing is barely any shorter, so anything you save in tunnelling is lost in the noise.
The amount of traffic between the UK and Ireland, combined with the dispersed nature of that traffic, means that any kind of fixed link is going to remain a pipe dream for a very long time to come.
 

GLC

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A cursory look at Google Maps shows me it's about 500km, in a straight line, from Cork to Brest. This would allow for Ireland to connect to another European country which would simplify things versus the UK. This straight line would also allow for a short convenient spur to Scilly, opening up a valuable commuter route to both nations, perhaps with an additional branch line to Penzance to open up Cornwall as well. Although a 500km under sea tunnel may sound daunting, remember that, it's essentially the same as a 1km long tunnel, just 500x longer.
 

zwk500

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Although a 500km under sea tunnel may sound daunting, remember that, it's essentially the same as a 1km long tunnel, just 500x longer.
Except it's really, really not. The ventilation and evacuation requirements are massively different as you get longer, especially undersea.
 

signed

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Although a 500km under sea tunnel may sound daunting
I am pretty sure the most direct path for such an immense project goes through the UK's territorial waters, which may or may not be an issue


from Cork to Brest
I would be absolutely down for something like that, but Brest is absolutely not the place you want to do such thing and be economical.

Brest to Paris is 8 to 9h by road, there are no big economic center less than a 3h drive away. Add 5h to 6h through the tunnel (maybe 3h if you build 200mph railway). Sadly not worth any costs. Running the Irish Ferries from Cork to Roscoff would have been much faster, but economically, running it to Ouistreham (Caen) is the way
 

Bald Rick

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A cursory look at Google Maps shows me it's about 500km, in a straight line, from Cork to Brest. This would allow for Ireland to connect to another European country which would simplify things versus the UK. This straight line would also allow for a short convenient spur to Scilly, opening up a valuable commuter route to both nations, perhaps with an additional branch line to Penzance to open up Cornwall as well. Although a 500km under sea tunnel may sound daunting, remember that, it's essentially the same as a 1km long tunnel, just 500x longer.

Nicely done sir! :lol:
 

Howardh

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The world's fastest pax/car ferry (Fransisco) can travel at just short of 70mph; at least in perfect conditions (which the Irish Sea rarely is!). So make it capable of taking a HS4 train, and it's crossing time is less than an hour! So if it can be loaded quickly and away and off the other end...London to Dublin in 5 hrs via Holyhead!

So we just need a train, a new fast line to Holyhead, docking on/off facilities and a new line to meet the ferry at Dublin and we're sorted! If you take time getting to/from both airports (Dublin/Heathrow), 2hrs for security and an hour for the flight then the fast rail/ferry option is better than flying!

Now, how to pay for it all....
 

Pigeon

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Never mind Holyhead, what about a new line from Worcester to Porth Dinllaen?
 

Indigo Soup

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To avoid the deep, explosives-filled trench that WW2 Ordnance was dumped in. Stranraer, of course is/was a port - but with Portpatrick being the closest point of land, the trench is off this.
The real hack here is that the ordnance is on the bottom of the sea. The tunnel would be under the bottom of the sea. More challenging is that Stranraer/Portpatrick don't lend themselves to onwards connections, and the depth of the trench is such that the gradients would be extremely unfavourable or the tunnel portals so far inland that you start undermining the theoretical benefit of the shorter crossing.

The Galloway-Belfast tunnel only really makes sense if you want the whole thing to have a Union Flag on top of it. The biggest flow for such a fixed link is always going to be London-Dublin.
I worked on the case for building a tunnel between Dublin and Holyhead many decades ago, the company I worked at had some of Europe's top tunnelling experts. The numbers stacked up if you assumed virtually all England to Ireland and Northern Ireland air passengers and all road freight moved to the tunnel. What was not included in the numbers was the cost of upgrading and electrifying the rail line from Crewe to Holyhead and building a new rail link into Dublin. In those days without HS2 the reality would be that London to Dublin would still be around 4hrs and so it would fail to capture a lot of the air market especially as Ryanair was revolutionising air travel then.
That's actually better than I expected! It's within the scope of HS2 improving the rail journey time, and whacking air travel with the environmental stick, to make feasible. Not that the engineering challenges are insignificant, but engineering challenges are generally solvable if someone wants them to be solved.

I'd assume that an Irish Sea car carrier (An Shuttle?) would be desirable to take road freight and car traffic off of the ferries. Ironically, you'd probably then need to upgrade the A55 to take the lorries that would have gone to the ferry ports, and similar upgrades to the Irish road network.

On a similar note, a full North Wales high speed line probably isn't viable given the terrain and population distribution. But an HS2 spur from Crewe to somewhere on the west side of the Dee estuary might work. With luck we can fob off the electrification from this point to the tunnel terminal on another budget. If we're doing this, we're electrifying all the main lines anyway, right?
The wider strategic position gets ignored by these proposals. While Irish politicians get very annoyed when Britain diverges from Ireland, Ireland's main strategic goal for over a century is diverging from Britain. A tunnel would go against the goal of diversifying trade. It's not something any Irish government would stump up €10-20bn to pay half of.
It would probably be easier to make the case if Ireland and the UK were inside the same political unit.... not that making it easier to build 305mm to the foot scale model trains is a good reason for doing that!
 

HSTEd

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If you wanted to build an Irish Sea crossing, I can't see you building a rail based crossing in Holyhead, the journey time crawling along the North Wales line would destroy its usefulness and a high speed line along there would be both ruinously expensive and politically impossible.

If you want a rail based crossing I would suggest a viaduct/bridge from near Southport to near Ardglass. THe water is shallow and long viaducts have way less safety and security issues than long tunnels. This is still a huge engineering challenge but at least wouldn't involve massively expensive, unproven, safety technologies.

However, if we are going to build an Irish Crossing at all I would suggest the only one that makes any sense is a Road (possibly with rail component) crossing in the North Channel.
A drive through crossing is the only way it is going to be a truly attractive product.
 

zwk500

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If you wanted to build an Irish Sea crossing, I can't see you building a rail based crossing in Holyhead, the journey time crawling along the North Wales line would destroy its usefulness and a high speed line along there would be both ruinously expensive and politically impossible.
You'd build a new line, or at least new sections, between Holyhead and Crewe. 200-250kph would be a perfectly viable speed, although 300-350kph would be nice.
If you want a rail based crossing I would suggest a viaduct/bridge from near Southport to near Ardglass. THe water is shallow and long viaducts have way less safety and security issues than long tunnels. This is still a huge engineering challenge but at least wouldn't involve massively expensive, unproven, safety technologies.
I don't see that this would be particularly any better than a tunnel, by the time you've got the shipping clearances and wind protection. Ventilation and fire is obviously much easier in a viaduct but evacuation from the middle of the Irish Sea is presumably just as problematic.
However, if we are going to build an Irish Crossing at all I would suggest the only one that makes any sense is a Road (possibly with rail component) crossing in the North Channel.
A drive through crossing is the only way it is going to be a truly attractive product.
Driving to and from the North Channel crossing would destroy any attractiveness from anywhere south of the M62 corridor (which includes the 2 largest cities in the UK).
 

HSTEd

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You'd build a new line, or at least new sections, between Holyhead and Crewe. 200-250kph would be a perfectly viable speed, although 300-350kph would be nice.
And that line would cost a alot of money and require lots and lots of political capital to construct.
HS2 struggled with an AONB, a North Wales line has to get through or around two national parks and then an AONB on Anglesey
I don't see that this would be particularly any better than a tunnel, by the time you've got the shipping clearances and wind protection. Ventilation and fire is obviously much easier in a viaduct but evacuation from the middle of the Irish Sea is presumably just as problematic.
Well not really, because ships, helicopters and the like can reach people in the middle of the Irish Sea. They can't help people in a tunnel at all.

Given the increasing presence in the irish sea for offshore wind and the like, there will be significant numbers of water and aircraft around most of the time.

Driving to and from the North Channel crossing would destroy any attractiveness from anywhere south of the M62 corridor (which includes the 2 largest cities in the UK).
NOt particularly scientific, but London-Belfast on Google Maps by car takes you via Stranraer.
London-Dublin is about 3 hours slower via Stranraer, but that's with a 2 hour ferry crossing (even without all the waiting and connection times). Replace that with a drive straight through and it will be competitive for much of Ireland - and certainly all of Northern Ireland.
 

Indigo Soup

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If you want a rail based crossing I would suggest a viaduct/bridge from near Southport to near Ardglass. THe water is shallow and long viaducts have way less safety and security issues than long tunnels. This is still a huge engineering challenge but at least wouldn't involve massively expensive, unproven, safety technologies.
If you were going the viaduct route, I'd stick with Holyhead-Dublin. The water depth isn't prohibitive, the crossing is significantly shorter, and it's in the right place for the heaviest potential traffic.
 

poffle

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One other effect of a Dublin - North Wales link would be to turn North Wales into a place for Dublin commuters to live.

The Øresund link has resulted in large numbers of people commuting from Malmö to Copenhagen.

Could have all sorts of political implications.
 

Mark J

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This thread is Crayonista on steroids. Seriously, where is the cost benefit of a rail link from the UK to Ireland.

:D
 

Mgameing123

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One other effect of a Dublin - North Wales link would be to turn North Wales into a place for Dublin commuters to live.

The Øresund link has resulted in large numbers of people commuting from Malmö to Copenhagen.

Could have all sorts of political implications.
Malmø is also very close to København. It takes roughly 30 - 40 minutes to get from Malmø to København Hovedbanegård.
 

MarkyT

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Well not really, because ships, helicopters and the like can reach people in the middle of the Irish Sea. They can't help people in a tunnel at all.
Unless the tunnel has escape shafts to the surface periodically, either via artificial islands or airtight tubular structures rising from the sea floor. Rescue could theoretically reach almost any point on a bridge directly however.
Given the increasing presence in the irish sea for offshore wind and the like, there will be significant numbers of water and aircraft around most of the time.
I don't know if a bridge is technically feasible on any route, but if it did prove possible, I wonder if it could also include an electrical interconnector between the Irish and Great British grids and a spine for connecting some offshore wind in the vicinity.
 

berneyarms

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This thread is Crayonista on steroids. Seriously, where is the cost benefit of a rail link from the UK to Ireland.

:D
Especially since the Irish government have zero interest in any such proposal.
 

zwk500

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Unless the tunnel has escape shafts to the surface periodically, either via artificial islands or airtight tubular structures rising from the sea floor. Rescue could theoretically reach almost any point on a bridge directly however.
In good weather. Which is not always present. A Tunnel can have rescue stations, or utilise adjacent tubes (as the Channel Tunnel does with the service tunnel) as part of an evacuation plan, which can run in any weather.
I don't know if a bridge is technically feasible on any route,
When Boris Johnson started shouting about it there was a study that costed a bridge from Stranraer/Portpatrick to NI at about £335bn, and a tunnel at £209bn. Both were, AIUI, deemed technically possible but economically ridiculous
but if it did prove possible, I wonder if it could also include an electrical interconnector between the Irish and Great British grids and a spine for connecting some offshore wind in the vicinity.
I would have thought a Tunnel would be better for an electrical interconnector, tbh. And an undersea interconnector already exists, funnily enough from Dublin to the Dee Estuary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East–West_Interconnector
 

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