HS4 and a rail lik from Britain to Ireland

[HSTEd]

In good weather. Which is not always present. A Tunnel can have rescue stations, or utilise adjacent tubes (as the Channel Tunnel does with the service tunnel) as part of an evacuation plan, which can run in any weather.

A bridge with an enclosed lower deck, such as is provided on bridges in Hong Kong, would provide just as good an access as a tunnel would have in any weather.

I would have thought a Tunnel would be better for an electrical interconnector, tbh.

Most likely not, it would impose major restrictions on the ampacity of the connection due to the difficulty of cooling.
The capacity of a surface connection integrated into a bridge would be much greater than that in a tunnel for this reason.

When Boris Johnson started shouting about it there was a study that costed a bridge from Stranraer/Portpatrick to NI at about £335bn, and a tunnel at £209bn. Both were, AIUI, deemed technically possible but economically ridiculous

Worth noting that those were the P95 prices with lots of optimism bias, and that the bridge option was a combined road-rail bridge rather than a rail-only tunnel.
Both options spent an awful lot of money on rail infrastructure that wasn't on the bridge/tunnel.

Indeed the rail connections alone cost two-thirds as much as the bridge itself.

 

[popeter45]

frankly what would be a okay solution at least short term, would be a rail ferry like what they do with the Strait of Messina
could even buy said ferrys second hand if/when they build the Messina Bridge

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't know if a bridge is technically feasible on any route, but if it did prove possible, I wonder if it could also include an electrical interconnector between the Irish and Great British grids

There’s already two, the East West between Shotton and Portan (near Dublin), the Moyle between Ayrshire and County Antrim; there’s a third - Greenlink - about to be commissioned between Pembroke and County Wexford, and a fourth in the early planning stages. Between the active three, they have capacity to power a quarter of the whole island.

 

[berneyarms]

There’s already two, the East West between Shotton and Portan (near Dublin), the Moyle between Ayrshire and County Antrim; there’s a third - Greenlink - about to be commissioned between Pembroke and County Wexford, and a fourth in the early planning stages. Between the active three, they have capacity to power a quarter of the whole island.

Re the East West Interconnector, I think you mean Portrane (near Donabate), north of Dublin.

 

[Bald Rick]

Re the East West Interconnector, I think you mean Portrane (near Donabate), north of Dublin.

No, I definitely mean Portan. Tap in Portan HVDC into googlemaps.

 

[Gloster]

Portan is well inland, being to the north of Maynooth, but is roughly on a level with Donabate. Could Donabate be where the cable comes ashore and Portan be where the electricity is fed into or taken from the Irish grid? (Written by someone whose technical knowledge runs out at changing a fuse.)

 

[Ken H]

Nobody has mentioned the Isle of Man as a place to come to the surface. Maybe even a station there. Chops a long tunnel in two. So maybe Southport - Douglas - Ireland somewhere.

By the way, the North Channel is a horrid bit of sea with strong tides. On a flood tide it tries to empty the Irish Sea northwards. And fill it up again 6 hours later. A bit of wind over tide (wind blowing in the opposite direction to the tidal stream) and it becomes inhospitable.

 

[Bald Rick]

Portan is well inland, being to the north of Maynooth, but is roughly on a level with Donabate. Could Donabate be where the cable comes ashore and Portan be where the electricity is fed into or taken from the Irish grid? (Written by someone whose technical knowledge runs out at changing a fuse.)

We are way off topic here (sorry mods - perhaps a thread on GB Grid decarbonisation?) …

but the E-W interconnector comes ashore at Rush, then makes it’s merry way to Portan HVDC.

Link here:

https://cms.eirgrid.ie/sites/default/files/publications/IrishRouteMap.pdf

(it‘s a map so not quotable)

 

[Mgameing123]

This thread is Crayonista on steroids. Seriously, where is the cost benefit of a rail link from the UK to Ireland.

I don’t think it’s a matter of if but more a matter of when. (I’m talking long after our lifetimes). An Irish Sea link would benefit trade between Ireland to Mainland Europe and the UK. It would seriously improve passenger rail connections towards Europe if Eurostar also goes to Ireland and we could even run a train to Scotland.

 

[berneyarms]

No, I definitely mean Portan. Tap in Portan HVDC into googlemaps.

Ah ok - that’s out in County Meath, rather than Dublin.

I don’t think it’s a matter of if but more a matter of when. (I’m talking long after our lifetimes). An Irish Sea link would benefit trade between Ireland to Mainland Europe and the UK. It would seriously improve passenger rail connections towards Europe if Eurostar also goes to Ireland and we could even run a train to Scotland.

Still ignores the fact that there is no Irish government policy or even hint of such a policy to develop such a link.

 

[zwk500]

I don’t think it’s a matter of if but more a matter of when. (I’m talking long after our lifetimes). An Irish Sea link would benefit trade between Ireland to Mainland Europe and the UK. It would seriously improve passenger rail connections towards Europe if Eurostar also goes to Ireland and we could even run a train to Scotland.

by the time it is economically viable to build a tunnel, we may well have invented teleporters.

It's a shame, because I'd love to see a 4-track tunnel with car shuttle/freight in one pair and a fast passenger service in the other but when you look at the problems the Channel Tunnel has had with funding, and then scale the tunnelling up to Irish Sea levels and the economics down to UK-Ireland it just doesn't add up.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Nobody has mentioned the Isle of Man as a place to come to the surface. Maybe even a station there. Chops a long tunnel in two. So maybe Southport - Douglas - Ireland somewhere.

It's perhaps worth remembering quite how far north the Isle of Man is. Based on nothing more than looking at Google Maps on my phone, it seems to me that to have two shorter tunnels meeting on Man, their outer ends would have to be somewhere north of Barrow and somewhere in rural Ulster. These are not places notably close to London and Dublin.

 

[zwk500]

Nobody has mentioned the Isle of Man as a place to come to the surface. Maybe even a station there. Chops a long tunnel in two. So maybe Southport - Douglas - Ireland somewhere.

Boris Johnson did suggest it when he was in his wildly bombastic mode. However 1 station doesn't really cover the entirety of the Isle of Man so it'd be Douglas, you'd also need to build a new railway across the island, and it makes the politics much more complex.
It also makes the considerations for operating a vehicle/truck shuttle much more complex, especially if trying to take a share out of the ferry market.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Boris Johnson did suggest it when he was in his wildly bombastic mode. However 1 station doesn't really cover the entirety of the Isle of Man so it'd be Douglas, you'd also need to build a new railway across the island, and it makes the politics much more complex.

A particularly ridiculous version of that proposal had road tunnels from Liverpool, Belfast, Heysham and Stranraer connecting to a roundabout under the Isle of Man.

 

[Bald Rick]

Ah ok - that’s out in County Meath, rather than Dublin.

Yes, and 15 miles from Temple Bar, so as I said, “near Dublin”.

 

[Pigeon]

I think what this idea needs is a train that runs on floating rails, and has a pair of cranes running along narrow-gauge ordinary rails on the roof to pick up the floating rails as they pop out behind and drop them back in the water in front.

 

[Philip]

How about either TfW or GBR purchasing a redundant HSS ferry and subsequently reinstating the high speed sea service between Holyhead & Dun Laoghaire/Dublin Port, operated by the railway company? The railway could then introduce through ticketing between the UK & Ireland, with the sea crossing part of the journey stated on the rail ticket.

If they brought the HSS crossing time down to what it was in the early days (around 90 minutes), then this would make it an attractive transport option to Ireland and more competitive against the airlines, without spending a huge amount of money on a tunnel or a bridge.

 

[Bald Rick]

How about either TfW or GBR purchasing a redundant HSS ferry and subsequently reinstating the high speed sea service between Holyhead & Dun Laoghaire/Dublin Port, operated by the railway company? The railway could then introduce through ticketing between the UK & Ireland, with the sea crossing part of the journey stated on the rail ticket.

If they brought the HSS crossing time down to what it was in the early days (around 90 minutes), then this would make it an attractive transport option to Ireland and more competitive against the airlines, without spending a huge amount of money on a tunnel or a bridge.

How about a ferry company doing that, rather than a railway company that has little idea how to run a maritime operation?

 

[Philip]

How about a ferry company doing that, rather than a railway company that has little idea how to run a maritime operation?

If a ferry company did it, it'd make through rail ticketing more difficult.

 

[fishwomp]

How about a ferry company doing that, rather than a railway company that has little idea how to run a maritime operation?

Or these lads?

Fishguard & Rosslare Railways & Harbours Co

Jointly owned by ferry and port operator Stena Line Ports Ltd and Iarnród Eireann, this company owns the railways in Ireland linking Waterford and Wexford with the port of Rosslare, but the lines are leased to and operated by IE. A short section is also owned serving Fishguard Harbour in ...

www.railwaygazette.com

The company still exists, and can even be found on London Stock Exchange. There is a book published about it, haven't read it yet.

A number of ferry companies operate wet leases - that's an airline term for renting fully crewed and ready to fly planes. Ships are generally wet underneath so the term might not be the same.

So, it just takes a bit of organising, money and experience in lining up the compliance, regulation, insurance..

But I don't think it will fly to add more ships on this route - competition is already there, as is, at Holyhead and Fishguard through ticketing.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

But I don't think it will fly to add more ships on this route - competition is already there, as is, at Holyhead and Fishguard through ticketing.

Also worth noting that unless it would be possible to make an HSS train ferry, this wouldn’t give a through service. Rather than getting on in London and off in Dublin like an aircraft does, it would be on in London, off and on the boat at Holyhead, off the boat and on the Dart at Dun Laoghaire, off in Dublin.

 

[Ghostbus]

Geology and fire safety concerns aside, what the current cost to bore a tunnel from Bristol to Dublin* as the crow flies?

A channel tunnel style by-directional high speed rail tunnel. I'm envisioning a conventional tunnel dive somewhere west of Bristol, with the terminus in Dublin being an underground station right under the city. Freight can be extracted either by continuing/diverting the tunnel to the edge to the city on the motorway network.

And what would the journey time be, assuming TGV speeds from Paddington to Bristol to Dublin?

I think this could make money by running HS2 style services during the day, with shuttles from London to Bristol to Dublin, with some paths seeing services also coming direct from England and Wales on conventional metals, and then at night running a mix of container freight, trainload freight and mototrains.

* - if the Irish government aren't interested, how much more money/time is required if the tunnel terminates at Belfast?

 

[MPW]

Wouldn't it make much more sense to just have the railway station directly linked to ferry Terminal at both ends? That way theres no issues with cross border differences or compatability of trains to boarding a ferry. Could 'just' be extension of future high speed routes.

Would there really be much time difference or hassle for passengers between a purpose-built connection and the train itself de-coupling then slowly boarding the train?

I could even imagine a ferry adapted with many more points of entry to somewhat match the number of doors on the train. I don't think that exists now but surely it would be an easier adjustment than adapting the whole railway on both ends.

 

[fishwomp]

Wouldn't it make much more sense to just have the railway station directly linked to ferry Terminal at both ends? That way theres no issues with cross border differences or compatability of trains to boarding a ferry. Could 'just' be extension of future high speed routes.

We could revert to ferries going to Stranraer Harbour instead of Cairnryan and to Dun Laoghaire instead of Dublin docks, and Larne instead of Belfast harbour. All three were great for rail links - but the road won out over the last 20 years, and now rail connection is not there any more.

 

[MPW]

Also, if a tunnel ever was viable then the overland rail links would need to be upgraded anyway. Focusing on that first is much more realistic business case standalone. Then we can all continue to fantasise about tunnels without holding out all other investment waiting for the giant bean stock.

 

[krus_aragon]

How about either TfW or GBR purchasing a redundant HSS ferry and subsequently reinstating the high speed sea service between Holyhead & Dun Laoghaire/Dublin Port, operated by the railway company? The railway could then introduce through ticketing between the UK & Ireland, with the sea crossing part of the journey stated on the rail ticket.

If they brought the HSS crossing time down to what it was in the early days (around 90 minutes), then this would make it an attractive transport option to Ireland and more competitive against the airlines, without spending a huge amount of money on a tunnel or a bridge.

The HSS had to burn a LOT of extra fuel to make the crossing in 90 minutes. The schedule was slowed down when passenger numbers dropped below the point where tickets sales covered the fuel costs. Andd that's before environmental concerns had the prominence they do these days.

In short: capital costs would be lower, but running costs could be eye-watering.

 

[Bald Rick]

Geology and fire safety concerns aside, what the current cost to bore a tunnel from Bristol to Dublin* as the crow flies?

A channel tunnel style by-directional high speed rail tunnel. I'm envisioning a conventional tunnel dive somewhere west of Bristol, with the terminus in Dublin being an underground station right under the city. Freight can be extracted either by continuing/diverting the tunnel to the edge to the city on the motorway network.

And what would the journey time be, assuming TGV speeds from Paddington to Bristol to Dublin?

I think this could make money by running HS2 style services during the day, with shuttles from London to Bristol to Dublin, with some paths seeing services also coming direct from England and Wales on conventional metals, and then at night running a mix of container freight, trainload freight and mototrains.

* - if the Irish government aren't interested, how much more money/time is required if the tunnel terminates at Belfast?

Ok I’ll bite.

Bristol to Dublin in a straight line is as near as makes no difference 200miles.

Assumong tunnelling technology is capable of such a tunnel (which it isn’t) with over half of it deep underwater, my estimate is that such a tunnel, fully functioning as a railway, would cost in the region of £200-£300billion.

Using the lower number, the interest on that, at forward predicted average weighted cost of capital, would be would be £7bn per year.

If all existing air and ferry passengers swapped to the tunnel (they wouldn’t), and the market doubled in size (it won’t), and the cost of operating and maintaining the service was nothing, (it won’t be), and there were no extra costs required to provide additional capacity to get the trains to/from Bristol (there would be), then the average fare would need to be in the order of £200 one way, just to pay the debt interest.

So, no, it wouldn’t make money.

 

[class26]

That's really interesting. I can't see how the journey could be significantly less than 4 hours even with HS2 being extended to Crewe. Eurostar is limited to 60mph through the tunnel because of the other traffic. That speed limit would mean Holyhead - Dublin would take nearly an hour. Upgrading the existing alignment between Crewe and Holyhead and HS2 phase 2a returning might make 3 hours 50 minutes possible.

The wider strategic position gets ignored by these proposals. While Irish politicians get very annoyed when Britain diverges from Ireland, Ireland's main strategic goal for over a century is diverging from Britain. A tunnel would go against the goal of diversifying trade. It's not something any Irish government would stump up €10-20bn to pay half of.

Isn`t Eurostar limited to 100 mph through the tunnel ?

 

[D365]

Most likely not, it would impose major restrictions on the ampacity of the connection due to the difficulty of cooling.

That’s the first time I’ve heard this word used by a Brit!

 

[InkyScrolls]

That’s the first time I’ve heard this word used by a Brit!

I thought it sounded odd! Ampage, surely?