HS4000 Kestral...

Discussion in 'Railway History & Nostalgia' started by exbrel, 8 Jul 2019.

  1. exbrel

    exbrel Member

    Messages:
    13
    Joined:
    24 Aug 2018
    hi,
    as a old Crewe works man, I have a memory of the above loco entering the works, possible for checks and the word was it was being shipped to Russia. Back in the 60/70's being a semi lapsed spotter, anything special ie named loco's or specials always warranted a cab and walk thru... with Kestral it was because she was special, and I remember thinking how would the Russian crews get thru the gang-ways. Anyone have a year for this visit?.
    Also when the open days were coming up Diesels and Steam visitors were given a check up or paint job plus the aforementioned cab/walk thru... happy memories.
     
  2. Registered users do not see these banners - join or log in today!

    Rail Forums

     
  3. Ash Bridge

    Ash Bridge Established Member

    Messages:
    3,287
    Joined:
    17 Mar 2014
    Location:
    Stockport, European Union.
    I think it was probably 1971 as HS4000 Kestrel visited Crewe Works for re- bogieing before being handed over to Russia's railway authorities at a location known as Scherbinka on the 16th July of that year.
     
  4. muddythefish

    muddythefish On Moderation

    Messages:
    1,350
    Joined:
    13 May 2014
    I saw Kestrel at Kings Cross around 1970-71. It was a beautiful and powerful looking locomotive, a triumph of design. Pity it was never put into production.
     
  5. randyrippley

    randyrippley Established Member

    Messages:
    1,928
    Joined:
    21 Feb 2016
    It would never have happened
    The thing was a railcrusher, even after it was retrofitted with class 47 bogies, and Sulzer abandoned development of the diesel engine: they sold all the rights to GEC
     
  6. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

    Messages:
    5,302
    Joined:
    2 Sep 2016
    Location:
    Glasgow
    Too heavy, if they could've got the axle-loading down to within that specified then it might have been more successful, certainly it's power was immense, I believe it gained 30 mins on a Deltic-timed run to Newcastle and without significantly exceeding 100mph.
     
  7. Steamysandy

    Steamysandy Member

    Messages:
    204
    Joined:
    29 Jan 2018
    Location:
    Longniddry
    I saw Kestrel at a Cricklewood depot open day in 1969. It was my second visit to London and the Sunday was a scorcher!
     
  8. exbrel

    exbrel Member

    Messages:
    13
    Joined:
    24 Aug 2018
    A slight thread drift, but as I mentioned in my original post we had some specials into Crewe works, there were the Midland Pullman, in the early 60's, Coronation Scot the Duchess of Hamilton when I saw it all the streamlining plates were stacked by it, I thought i'm glad i'm not replacing those... a LNER A.4 not sure which, but we tried out the walk thru the tender, as I said a lot of my "visits" to the cabs was on the week previous to the open days.
     
  9. Taunton

    Taunton Established Member

    Messages:
    3,691
    Joined:
    1 Aug 2013
    I think it had been in the SZD Soviet Railways' hands for some time beforehand, having been shipped as deck cargo and then taken to an SZD works to be re-gauged. Shcherbinka (Ще́рбинка) was the old SZD research institute, just south of Moscow, which had extensive test facilities and a circular test track, which is still there https://www.google.com/maps/search/shchkerbinka/@55.515251,37.5487102,3398m/data=!3m1!1e3 . The engine was later taken out and used as a static generator, which like many large diesels suited it better than the constant variability and vibration of traction.

    The big 12-cylinder Sulzer engine used in the Peaks and Class 47 was two parallel 6-cylinder blocks side-by-side, connected to the generator by gearing. The engine in HS4000 was a pioneer (I think unique) 16-cylinder V engine, so had just one crankshaft instead of two; the same concept had been used for the 12-cylinder V engine experimentally put into five of the Class 47. Sulzer never seemed to get to grips with all this power in a single crankshaft, and SNCF who bought quite a number of the 12-cyl V Sulzers had the same issues with it. The Soviets built both basic types in parallel, although like the USA they favoured 2-stroke diesels.
     
    Last edited: 10 Jul 2019
  10. RLBH

    RLBH Member

    Messages:
    657
    Joined:
    17 May 2018
    My understanding is that the 12LVA24 had issues with the bearings because Sulzer had supplied faulty gauges. SNCF's fitters figured this out, but BR's fitters - probably because there were only a handful of locomotives - didn't. There may also have been issues with the fabricated crankcase, but evidently this was less of a concern since the SNCF 12LVA24s lasted into the 1990s.

    On paper at least, the V-engine ought to have been more satisfactory than the twin-bank engine. Kestrel's engine was probably more highly stressed than the engine in the Class 48s (the 16-cylinder version at that time was a 3,500hp engine) which may have reduced reliability.
     
  11. randyrippley

    randyrippley Established Member

    Messages:
    1,928
    Joined:
    21 Feb 2016
    FWIW I have read that the top end and valve gear in the engines in the 56 and 58 owe more to Sulzer inspiration than EE.
    Following the class 48 fiasco and the universal lack of interest in the Kestrel engine, Sulzer gave up and sold the rights to GEC, who used the technology in the Ruston-Paxman RK3 range
     
  12. Taunton

    Taunton Established Member

    Messages:
    3,691
    Joined:
    1 Aug 2013
    Sulzer were a bit of a strange company. From landlocked Switzerland they developed diesel engines for ships, which as elsewhere were then adapted for rail. Sulzer did the design, and their engineers hand-built the pre-production units, but volume production was contracted out to different conntries, often to those with shipyard facilities who were building diesels for ships. Most of the UK engines were thus built by Vickers-Armstrong at their Barrow shipyard, while the SNCF engines were built by SACM in Paris. Likewise the different engines were often just variations on a theme, with different numbers of standard-spec cylinders and different amounts of turbocharging into the same cylinder design. Sulzer were into various other mechanical engineering products, like textile weaving machines and industrial pumps.

    I believe a fair number of BR (and SNCF) engineers made the trip to the Sulzer works in Winterthur near Zurich over time. There was a member of the public posted some reminiscences here a while ago, whose father from BR Derby had made various business trips to Switzerland in the 1960s. I think we can guess who he was going to visit. I have to say that Sulzer probably couldn't teach the Soviets much about diesel traction, they must have been second only to the USA in the number built, and a good number from the onetime SZD era are still running.
     
    Last edited: 10 Jul 2019
  13. Rockhopper

    Rockhopper Member

    Messages:
    160
    Joined:
    29 Apr 2019
    If you can get hold of back issues of “The Railway Magazine” they did a big feature on Kestrel - it might have been about eighteen months ago perhaps.
     
  14. Merthyr Imp

    Merthyr Imp Member

    Messages:
    270
    Joined:
    24 May 2016
    Location:
    Merthyr Tydfil
    It was in two parts - the July and August 2017 issues.
     
  15. Alanko

    Alanko Member

    Messages:
    59
    Joined:
    2 May 2019
    Location:
    Somewhere between Waverley and Queen Street.
    I quite like the idea that there is a bit of Kestrel out there in Russia somewhere. I found a discussion on another forum where somebody had spent quite some time scouring Google Earth, and reckoned they had found it.

    These images are interesting at least.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Steamysandy

    Steamysandy Member

    Messages:
    204
    Joined:
    29 Jan 2018
    Location:
    Longniddry
    I believe it was scrapped some years back
     
  17. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

    Messages:
    5,302
    Joined:
    2 Sep 2016
    Location:
    Glasgow
    I think was supposed to have been cut up in 1992/3.
     
  18. Cowley

    Cowley Established Member

    Messages:
    6,095
    Joined:
    15 Apr 2016
    Location:
    Devon
    Great photos. Any idea when they were taken?
     
  19. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

    Messages:
    5,302
    Joined:
    2 Sep 2016
    Location:
    Glasgow
  20. Cowley

    Cowley Established Member

    Messages:
    6,095
    Joined:
    15 Apr 2016
    Location:
    Devon
  21. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

    Messages:
    5,302
    Joined:
    2 Sep 2016
    Location:
    Glasgow
    I know, like a 47 but more stylish. I always think it's such a shame they didn't progress the design and produce a production class.
     
  22. Alanko

    Alanko Member

    Messages:
    59
    Joined:
    2 May 2019
    Location:
    Somewhere between Waverley and Queen Street.
  23. randyrippley

    randyrippley Established Member

    Messages:
    1,928
    Joined:
    21 Feb 2016
    Google translate came up with a legible version of the gibberish at http://ivan1950.tripod.com/Disel-Kestrel.html

    copyright remains with the Russian author, Ivan Andreev
     

Share This Page