HS4Air – “An M25 for high speed trains”

[MarkyT]

A new high-speed railway connecting HS1 and HS2 around the south of London via both Gatwick and Heathrow has been proposed by engineering consultancy Expedition for new domestic and international services, including a fast transfer link between the airports.

https://expedition.uk.com/thinking/hs4air-an-m25-for-high-speed-trains/

HS4Air (High Speed for Air) is a proposed strategic high-speed rail/air connection in south east England developed by Expedition director Alistair Lenczner.

The proposal is for a new high-speed railway connection that links the existing HS1 line with the planned HS2 line passing via both Gatwick (LGW) and Heathrow (LHR) airports to the south and west of London.

The proposal is seen as offering multiple benefits across several infrastructure sectors. These include:

• Fast direct rail access to both LGW and LHR from major cities north and west of London including Birmingham, Manchester and Cardiff
• Dramatically reduced journey times for rail journeys between south east England and the Midlands, North and West UK
• Direct high-speed train services from Manchester and Birmingham to Europe via the channel tunnel
• A 15-minute transfer time between LGW and LHR allowing them to share operations
• Fast rail freight services by-passing London to allow dramatically faster logistics operations
• Relief for London’s rail network leaving more capacity for Londoners.

HS4 would minimize its introduction into the environment of South East England by doing the following:

• Being twinned with the M25 to the west of London
• Passing in tunnels under sensitive rural environments such as the North Downs
• Re-using the existing railway between Ashford to Tonbridge upgraded for high speed running.

In addition to the benefits mentioned above, HS4air is also seen as an opportunity to introduce nationally significant new utilities connections within the HS4air route. This would allow important new network connections to be made without need for disruptive additional works. For example, a new below ground National Grid connection could be incorporated into HS4air using GIL lines.

HS4air is seen as an example of a more co-ordinated approach to the planning of strategic new infrastructure within the UK. The benefits of this approach include:

• More benefits from infrastructure projects
• Better value for investments made in infrastructure
• Reduced impact on the environment.

For more information contact Alistair Lenczner at [email protected]

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

No mention of how such a scheme might be financed. Without this information I'm somewhat skeptical. And the proposed twinning (of alignment) with the M25 west of London might cut across proposals for a southern rail approach to Heathrow.

 

[GreatAuk]

Don't understand how this made the news to be honest, as it just seems like a small (I'm assuming) engineering consultancy trying to generate publicity with some pie in the sky thinking that has no chance of ever getting built, with no real detail to the proposal at all (at least that I can see from the article on their website).

While it looks nice on a map, I just don't think it makes sense. That Ashford to Birmingham Market it'll support? Not very large I'd guess. linking Heathrow to Gatwick? Sounds great, but how many trains would that really fill every hour...

Thinking of HS2 Design decisions, if it wasn't worth building a spur to Heathrow or spending a couple of billion on a link to HS1, is it really credible that building an entirely new high speed railway to do much the same things is going to be feasible?

 

[BobUK45]

This just flashed up on my newsfeed, direct trains between Heathrow & Gatwick, but also Paris CDG airport.

www.kentlive.news/news/kent-news/new-hs4air-rail-line-connect-1312558.amp

A new train service which will bypass London but provide a key link to the south's major airports is on the cards for Kent.

HS4Air, known as High Speed for Air, is proposing to land at Ashford International Station and connect the south east of the country with other high speed links, as well as faster travel to airports.

The proposal, developed by engineering consultants Expedition director Alistair Lenczner, could see a high speed connection that links the existing HS1 line with the planned HS2 line passing via both Gatwick in Crawley and London Heathrow.

www.cityam.com/281757/firm-has-come-up-m25-high-speed-trains-spanning-both/amp

A new proposal for a new high-speed railway passing both Gatwick and Heathrow has been developed to enhance other major infrastructure projects for the south east.

Engineering consultancy Expedition today revealed its £10bn plan for HS4Air, which would connect the existing HS1 rail line with the planned HS2 along a route that passes via London's biggest airports.

 

[Bantamzen]

This just flashed up on my newsfeed, direct trains between Heathrow & Gatwick, but also Paris CDG airport.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....news/new-hs4air-rail-line-connect-1312558.amp

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.ci...me-up-m25-high-speed-trains-spanning-both/amp

This actually sounds quite good (aside from the optimistic name, let's get a firm plan on HS3 off the ground before HS4 is used), then I read this statement:

“The proposed HS4Air project is an example of integrated strategic planning that spans across multiple infrastructure sectors that are too often planned within separate “silos”.

And I remembered this is the UK, and when it comes to transport infrastructure we don't do integrated very well, or at all.....

 

[matt_world2004]

I cant find the map in hgh enough detail but it looks to me to be rather crudely drawn. Its literally appears to be a crayon line drawn roughly to avoid any major settlements while demolishing staines in half .disregarding any existing infrastructure.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Surely demolishing Staines in half would be an improvement?

 

[fergusjbend]

John Betjeman thought so!

Oops, that was Slough, wasn't it?

 

[najaB]

Its literally appears to be a crayon line drawn roughly to avoid any major settlements while demolishing staines in half

I presumed it would go under Staines.

 

[HSTEd]

Still trying to build a business case for a HS2-HS1 through route I see.... and one that goes through Heathrow.

Is this High Speed Rail bingo?

 

[John @ home]

It ... appears to ... avoid any major settlements while demolishing staines in half

Surely demolishing Staines in half would be an improvement?

Not too far from Staines, but it was Slough which was designated for this treatment in 1937.

Come friendly bombs and fall on Slough!
It isn’t fit for humans now,
There isn’t grass to graze a cow.
Swarm over, Death!

https://exlaodicea.wordpress.com/2008/04/03/slough-by-john-betjeman/

 

[matt_world2004]

I presumed it would go under Staines.

The ground at staines is rather waterlogged for tunnelling.Also it straddles the m25 sometimes north of it sometimes south of it. That design is quite impractical

 

[gsnedders]

There was some talk a number of years ago about a maglev train being built between LHR and LGW, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[goblinuser]

I understand having a hs2-Heathrow-Gatwick rail link, but why go to Ashford? Will it stop at any classic stations to link the Southern rail network up better and stop people from having to go up to London and back out if they want to use rail to travel across kent?

 

[Cosmicismsx]

Linking the GWML, Heathrow, then Gatwick to the Channel Tunnel sounds like a great idea, even better than the original HS1/CTRL. However this HS4Air pitch doesn't seem to have any thought behind it, how would we fund it, especially now the government are seemingly moving away from mainland Europe...?

 

[DanTrain]

I understand having a hs2-Heathrow-Gatwick rail link, but why go to Ashford?

My thoughts exactly. Heathrow and Gatwick do need linking properly (although I'd personally be in favour of some kind of hyperloop pod based system to just link to two airports into a kind of mega-hub. However, the idea of connecting HS2 to the airports seems very sensible. As for Ashford - why? Just add a HS1-HS2 link if you want direct trains to Europe, no need for a massive and pointless diversion via Gatwick.

 

[goblinuser]

Or use the huge amount of money this would cost and build the estuary airport.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

It should be noted that Expedition are involved in the regeneration scheme for the Old Oak Common/Park Royal area for which the HS2 station forms a significant economic generator. My guess is that they are looking for ways to maintain the impetus for HS2. The HS4Air scheme would also be a possible alternative to building Heathrow's 3rd runway but the idea that BA would be happy to operate Heathrow and Gatwick services as a single hub using HS4Air as the surface connection is frankly laughable. And I doubt that there is much of a market for through HS services between Birmingham or Manchester to Paris or Brussels as journey times will not be low enough to genuinely compete with air travel. I suspect this proposal is more designed to stimulate discussion than to be taken forward as a working scheme.

 

[Ploughman]

I thought that the M25 was renowned as a carpark.

 

[AM9]

I thought that the M25 was renowned as a carpark.

Probably not as much as the M6.

 

[Busaholic]

Wouldn't it be simpler to have direct planes between Gatwick and Heathrow: one or two per hour would probably be sufficient?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Wouldn't it be simpler to have direct planes between Gatwick and Heathrow: one or two per hour would probably be sufficient?

The problem is that before any commercial flight gets airborne it has to have a certain amount of contingency fuel aboard over and above that needed for the basic flight distance itself. For short flights this can mean rather large quantities for anything above, say, 19 seat capacity. There's a reason why short flights are almost exclusively over water; for overland journeys of short distances aircraft are just too expensive a solution for anyone other than the wealthy.

 

[EIKN]

Found this interesting article https://www.globalrailwayreview.com/news/67132/hs4air-proposal-south-east-england/
I wonder how realistic a prospect it is .
It does look like a much needed logical idea collected from various proposals over the years .
But didn't someone on here say Euro gauge is different.
I'm new to rail forums so can someone please elaborate on what this gauge is. Is it a weight thing.
Just I recall GNER Operating Eurostar trains in the full GNER Colours in fact I had the pleasure of a trip to Edinburgh on one.
Did they also ever go down the WCML?.

 

[camflyer]

Or use the huge amount of money this would cost and build the estuary airport.

An Estuary airport would cost at least 10 times as much and you would still have to build a HS rail link to it as well as all of the other infrastructure required.

This is an interesting proposal but so far it looks like it is just a publicity stunt from an engineering consultancy.

 

[gsnedders]

The problem is that before any commercial flight gets airborne it has to have a certain amount of contingency fuel aboard over and above that needed for the basic flight distance itself. For short flights this can mean rather large quantities for anything above, say, 19 seat capacity. There's a reason why short flights are almost exclusively over water; for overland journeys of short distances aircraft are just too expensive a solution for anyone other than the wealthy.

Also runway capacity at LGW and LHR, the fact that for such a short flight turbofans are particularly inefficient (they're pretty bad except as high-altitude cruise) and turbofans cause chaos at LHR (though we do have some again, in the form of FlyBe's domestic flights) due to their relatively low take-off and landing speeds.

Found this interesting article https://www.globalrailwayreview.com/news/67132/hs4air-proposal-south-east-england/
I wonder how realistic a prospect it is .
It does look like a much needed logical idea collected from various proposals over the years .
But didn't someone on here say Euro gauge is different.
I'm new to rail forums so can someone please elaborate on what this gauge is. Is it a weight thing.
Just I recall GNER Operating Eurostar trains in the full GNER Colours in fact I had the pleasure of a trip to Edinburgh on one.
Did they also ever go down the WCML?.

In short, they're wider beneath the passenger compartment and taller (hence being able to fit double deckers in Europe but not here).

None of the GNER Eurostars operated north of York (they aren't allowed across some of the junctions approaching Newcastle, because they don't quite fit), so you must be misremembering them going to Edinburgh; note that they were operated by GNER simply because they were the only readily available 125mph electric rolling-stock when they needed more (and they caused plenty of problems, not least because of the amount of power they draw). As far as I'm aware, the only times any Eurostar touched the WCML was during gauging trials when they were still meant to operate services from The North to Europe (these trains that largely sat idle for their life were the ones that GNER got some of).

 

[HSTEd]

An Estuary airport would cost at least 10 times as much and you would still have to build a HS rail link to it as well as all of the other infrastructure required.

This is an interesting proposal but so far it looks like it is just a publicity stunt from an engineering consultancy.

Well given the constantly spiralling costs of the Heathrow Expansion - I am not so sure.
I think £50bn is more than enough for an Estuary Airport by many sane estimates, including a high speed rail link.

 

[Ianno87]

Also runway capacity at LGW and LHR, the fact that for such a short flight turbofans are particularly inefficient (they're pretty bad except as high-altitude cruise) and turbofans cause chaos at LHR (though we do have some again, in the form of FlyBe's domestic flights) due to their relatively low take-off and landing speeds.



In short, they're wider beneath the passenger compartment and taller (hence being able to fit double deckers in Europe but not here).

None of the GNER Eurostars operated north of York (they aren't allowed across some of the junctions approaching Newcastle, because they don't quite fit), so you must be misremembering them going to Edinburgh; note that they were operated by GNER simply because they were the only readily available 125mph electric rolling-stock when they needed more (and they caused plenty of problems, not least because of the amount of power they draw). As far as I'm aware, the only times any Eurostar touched the WCML was during gauging trials when they were still meant to operate services from The North to Europe (these trains that largely sat idle for their life were the ones that GNER got some of).

A North of London Eurostar reached Polmadie/Glasgow on a test run. Can't remember if via ECML or WCML.

I recall some issue with the gauging for Regional Eurostars uncovering some issue with the track alignment at King Edward Bridge Jn, which required a speed reduction to 10mph to be imposed to reduce the kinematic envelope.

The plan was for them to run to Glasgow via the ECML.

 

[Trackbedjolly]

I was lucky enough to see one of the test runs from trackside and took a photo:

https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/55/822/

I have said the location was Etruria but it could have been Longport.

 

[gsnedders]

A North of London Eurostar reached Polmadie/Glasgow on a test run. Can't remember if via ECML or WCML.

I recall some issue with the gauging for Regional Eurostars uncovering some issue with the track alignment at King Edward Bridge Jn, which required a speed reduction to 10mph to be imposed to reduce the kinematic envelope.

The plan was for them to run to Glasgow via the ECML.

AFAIK, it was one single gauging run that found the issue at King Edward Bridge Junction and reached Glasgow Central. I thought they were banned over King Edward Brdige Jn, rather than a 10mph speed restriction, though?

 

[MarkyT]

Eurostars have long noses extending a little further beyond their outermost wheelsets than any other UK train. In some places, particularly tight low speed stations and junctions, one could be standing clear of a set of points according to the track circuits, yet with the nose possibly still foul of other traffic passing through the junction. It was usually possible to solve this by moving the block joints a short distance further from the junction, but some sites were more problematic and the joints couldn't be moved without compromising some other parameter such as the usable platform length, or requiring the expensive relocation of a signal. Eurostars could be cleared physically yet be restricted from routine operation by such signalling clearance issues. A one off run where this applied might be possible, but special safeguards and restrictions at known tight spots would have to be employed.