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HSBC, the EU and Global Sustainability

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TheKnightWho

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The upside is that it would remove much of the annoyances in the tax system - having money sent to sectors of society that the tax payers don't care for. After all, having children is practically voluntary (contraception is gratis on the NHS) and perhaps the squeezed middle would be able to avoid the squeeze by not having children in the first place.

The sewers aren't cared for, but I'm glad they're still funded.

And you don't just tell people they shouldn't have children - that's completely unfair for a start, and a direct result of your new tax, and totally ignores accidental children etc.
 
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NSEFAN

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Jonny said:
.The upside is that it would remove much of the annoyances in the tax system - having money sent to sectors of society that the tax payers don't care for. After all, having children is practically voluntary (contraception is gratis on the NHS) and perhaps the squeezed middle would be able to avoid the squeeze by not having children in the first place.
It's not quite as simple as that. Given the turbulent nature of the economy it is perfectly reasonable that someone should have children when they can afford to do so, only to later find their circumstances change and they are now unable to look after themselves. Should people therefore ensure they can guarantee to raise a family for, say, 20 years before they are allowed to have children? Almost nobody can plan their own circumstances that far in advance.
 

DownSouth

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It's not quite as simple as that. Given the turbulent nature of the economy it is perfectly reasonable that someone should have children when they can afford to do so, only to later find their circumstances change and they are now unable to look after themselves. Should people therefore ensure they can guarantee to raise a family for, say, 20 years before they are allowed to have children? Almost nobody can plan their own circumstances that far in advance.
It wouldn't be economically viable either. Last I saw, the UK birth rate was well below the 2.2 required for full replacement, and consistently dropping rather than recovering to the replacement rate.

Going forward, that's going to have the problem of an ageing population, which will result in lower productivity, further bloating of the public sector (elderly people use more social services) and eventual lowering of living standards.

The last thing that the UK needs at this time is to be applying disincentives for childbirth. A helpful move would be to stop using terms such as "universally subsidised" when talking about proper public-funded education and switch to more positive terms such as "investment" instead.
 

Abpj17

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The op is pretty uninformed.

HSBC review their location every three years. The timing is political insomuch as the most recent budget announced another increase in the banking levy.

I imagine hsbc feel they are paying more than their fair share, particularly as they didn't require financial assistance in the crisis. Try taking a look at how much tax they pay in the UK.
 

radamfi

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It wouldn't be economically viable either. Last I saw, the UK birth rate was well below the 2.2 required for full replacement, and consistently dropping rather than recovering to the replacement rate.

Going forward, that's going to have the problem of an ageing population, which will result in lower productivity, further bloating of the public sector (elderly people use more social services) and eventual lowering of living standards.

The last thing that the UK needs at this time is to be applying disincentives for childbirth. A helpful move would be to stop using terms such as "universally subsidised" when talking about proper public-funded education and switch to more positive terms such as "investment" instead.

Aside from the obvious ethical arguments against children, which I've already posted about at length many times, what about the severe environmental cost of children? It is such a shame that the environment is being forgotten in this election, despite it being by far the most important issue.

Western countries almost all have a below replacement rate and are well aware of the economic consequences in the medium term. They plan to fill the void by immigration, despite anti-immigration rhetoric. It is cheaper to import well educated young adults instead of paying to raise and educate domestically.
 

muz379

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The position of anti-EU proponents is bizarre. In addition of all that has been said about the democratic principle operating at all levels, there are significant restrictions and rules that we are bound to where we have NO democratic voice, particularly where the US is involved.
One high profile issue at the moment, (it keeps popping up from time to time) is that of extradition. Why don't we demand equal rights in the process? After all, the US legal system is supposed to be as fair (or unfair) as ours so what have the Americans to lose?
Strangely enough, these anti-EU libertarians don't seem to make much fuss about our complete lack of democratic rights there.

Indeed . Many of the issues that anti EU proponents talk about would occur even if we where not members of the EU . Take the regulations and directives aimed at cutting down on energy use . As signatories to the Kyoto protocol we still have responsibilities to adhere to commitments we have made under these treaties . I personally think it is a far better use of resources and in our benefit as a country to have regulations in these areas made by the EU so that things like that can be unified across Europe . Think how much it would cost us if we had to employ people in the UK to decided if the latest BMW cars or any other import from other european countries or further beyond met our commitments under the kyoto protocol. Im with TheKnightWho in saying that I have yet to meet a euro skeptic who has told me of any EU made regulation or directive that they actually disagree with . But then you would have to look very hard given that even the euro skeptic party dont turn up in the parliament as often as they should so dont know much about its work themselves . The last ukip candidate who came canvassing at my house thought that the ECHR was a "department of the eu" . I soon set him straight with my human rights law textbook . But still it worries me that these idiots are out and about convincing people to vote for them .
 

Jonny

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It wouldn't be economically viable either. Last I saw, the UK birth rate was well below the 2.2 required for full replacement, and consistently dropping rather than recovering to the replacement rate.

Equally, though, the UK has grown through migration in recent years and has a notable accommodation shortage; one patch to help overcome this would be to let the childbirth rate slip for a few years through easy contraception and lack of incentives to conceive.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh, and I checked up on the statistics. The lowest was 1.63 (measured as "births per woman") in 2001, and now appears stable around the 1.9 mark. OK so that might be rather low, but it certainly isn't falling.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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I know the threads can stray a tad whilst the subject matter is developed, but heavens above, it certainly has taken a most fertile imagination to draw a comparison between HSBC moving from its London head office to a quite lively discussion on childbirth in Britain today.

Unless, of course, one looks at the wider meaning of "a deposit account" to make reference to sperm and matters ovulate rather than to monetary matters..:D
 

DownSouth

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I know the threads can stray a tad whilst the subject matter is developed, but heavens above, it certainly has taken a most fertile imagination to draw a comparison between HSBC moving from its London head office to a quite lively discussion on childbirth in Britain today.
This is the internet forum, not the comments section on a news story.

Topics evolve.

Either deal with it, or promote your candidature to become a moderator and push for a new hardline policy on keeping to the topic.
 
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SS4

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The op is pretty uninformed.

HSBC review their location every three years. The timing is political insomuch as the most recent budget announced another increase in the banking levy.

I imagine hsbc feel they are paying more than their fair share, particularly as they didn't require financial assistance in the crisis. Try taking a look at how much tax they pay in the UK.

Yet they're clearly getting enough benefit from it to stay. If there were any hint that it was not profitable they'd have gone a long time ago.

HSBC also announced a move to Birmingham about a month ago so I suspect they're using their influence to push their interests ahead of the election. I just hope our politicians have enough balls to take it in context.

Still think we need to diversify the economy more though
 

yorksrob

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It wouldn't be economically viable either. Last I saw, the UK birth rate was well below the 2.2 required for full replacement, and consistently dropping rather than recovering to the replacement rate.

Going forward, that's going to have the problem of an ageing population, which will result in lower productivity, further bloating of the public sector (elderly people use more social services) and eventual lowering of living standards.

But when do you stop. We can't continue having population growth for ever more, globally as well as nationally.
 

TheKnightWho

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I know the threads can stray a tad whilst the subject matter is developed, but heavens above, it certainly has taken a most fertile imagination to draw a comparison between HSBC moving from its London head office to a quite lively discussion on childbirth in Britain today.

Unless, of course, one looks at the wider meaning of "a deposit account" to make reference to sperm and matters ovulate rather than to monetary matters..:D

I always think it's an irritating restriction on what can be lively debate when forums insist that you always stick on topic :p
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But when do you stop. We can't continue having population growth for ever more, globally as well as nationally.

We stop when it's not possible to grow anymore - we don't just artificially limit it to justify discriminating against certain groups of people.

The thing about populations through history is that they naturall flux depending on the resources available - so long as Britain is a richer country than these people's home countries then it shows it has the resources to deal with additional people. The fact of the matter is that if people are so insistent on stopping immigration then the best solution is to improve living standards in their homes countries. Ironically, UKIP and the right-wing want to reduce foreign aid, when it would achieve exactly what they want!
 

cjmillsnun

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It's also the only big bank that didn't need bailing out.

Barclays didn't get ant bailout either. EDIT: beaten to it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The op is pretty uninformed.

HSBC review their location every three years. The timing is political insomuch as the most recent budget announced another increase in the banking levy.

I imagine hsbc feel they are paying more than their fair share, particularly as they didn't require financial assistance in the crisis. Try taking a look at how much tax they pay in the UK.

I seem to recall they were thinking about moving out of the city anyway and going to Birmingham.
 

yorksrob

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We stop when it's not possible to grow anymore - we don't just artificially limit it to justify discriminating against certain groups of people.

The thing about populations through history is that they naturall flux depending on the resources available - so long as Britain is a richer country than these people's home countries then it shows it has the resources to deal with additional people. The fact of the matter is that if people are so insistent on stopping immigration then the best solution is to improve living standards in their homes countries. Ironically, UKIP and the right-wing want to reduce foreign aid, when it would achieve exactly what they want!

Arguably we're already beyond the point where it's possible for the population to grow sustainability.

There's also a limit to what development can achieve, given that so many countries are benighted by religious and tribal conflict.
 

radamfi

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We stop when it's not possible to grow anymore - we don't just artificially limit it to justify discriminating against certain groups of people.

How are you going to calculate whether growth is possible? You could say that the world's carrying capacity is virtually endless, as you could build several hundred storey tower blocks everywhere. At some point, you have to worry about where sufficient water and food will come from. That's also ignoring the obvious environmental issues. To get around this, you could build space stations and colonise other planets. But significant improvements in technology would be required.

The best way of cutting population growth is by making large families socially unacceptable, which to an extent is already the case in the UK. For example, TV documentaries which satirise very large families. Some countries have a long standing cultural preference for small families, such as Hungary.

As education levels improve, the desirability of child rearing goes down, which is why most western countries are below replacement level, despite generous incentives in some countries. Only a huge amount of money can compensate for the detrimental effect of children on someone's life.
 

TheKnightWho

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Arguably we're already beyond the point where it's possible for the population to grow sustainability.

There's also a limit to what development can achieve, given that so many countries are benighted by religious and tribal conflict.

But we're notwhere near any of that. How can we judge? These things happen when growth slows down naturally, and when it becomes unsustainable or unacceptable to attempt to grow further. Now, what we mean by unacceptable could be many things, but that doesn't change the fact that it's not this limit that we somehow hit (or are past) that we can use to justify discriminating against immigrants.
 
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yorksrob

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But we're notwhere near any of that. How can we judge? These things happen when growth slows down naturally, and when it becomes unsustainable or unacceptable to attempt to grow further. Now, what we mean by unacceptable could be many things, but that doesn't change the fact that it's not this limit that we somehow hit (or are past) that we can use to justify discriminating against immigrants.

Already Britain has more population than it can possibly feed by itself.

My point is that you cannot indefinitely stave off dealing with the inevitable issues of a maturing population by chasing never ending population growth, whether that be by paying people to churn out babies or by encouraging uncontrolled immigration. Such an approach is tantamount to a pyramid scheme.
 

TheKnightWho

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Already Britain has more population than it can possibly feed by itself.

My point is that you cannot indefinitely stave off dealing with the inevitable issues of a maturing population by chasing never ending population growth, whether that be by paying people to churn out babies or by encouraging uncontrolled immigration. Such an approach is tantamount to a pyramid scheme.

But that's irrelevant, and indeed an argument that globalisation and integration with other countries is a necessity rather than an argument against them. Unless you're happy with massively decreasing our living standards.

It's a bit of a myth that countries have to be self-sustainable - North Korea tried that, and obviously utterly failed. Even without a horrible dictator at the top, the fact of the matter is that technology and growth for the last few hundred years have been reliant on trade and movement of labour, and as such we can't just say "oh, we should stop now" as though the rest of the world won't just carry on without us.

The most important point is that the end of the line for growth is not some arbitrary line in the sand that we draw, that only ends up stifling living standards and causing problems through its artificiality, but something that will naturally happen when it's impossible to continue growing. What people forget is that growth does not inherently mean 500 storey tower blocks over the whole of the UK: destroying the landscape and wildlife does eventually become bad for the economy for numerous reasons - most obviously the total destruction of agriculture. Plus things such as the Human Development Index rely on such things - that's more important than economic growth, although at the moment they're closely tied.
 

yorksrob

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But that's irrelevant, and indeed an argument that globalisation and integration with other countries is a necessity rather than an argument against them. Unless you're happy with massively decreasing our living standards.

It's a bit of a myth that countries have to be self-sustainable - North Korea tried that, and obviously utterly failed. Even without a horrible dictator at the top, the fact of the matter is that technology and growth for the last few hundred years have been reliant on trade and movement of labour, and as such we can't just say "oh, we should stop now" as though the rest of the world won't just carry on without us.

The most important point is that the end of the line for growth is not some arbitrary line in the sand that we draw, that only ends up stifling living standards and causing problems through its artificiality, but something that will naturally happen when it's impossible to continue growing. What people forget is that growth does not inherently mean 500 storey tower blocks over the whole of the UK: destroying the landscape and wildlife does eventually become bad for the economy for numerous reasons - most obviously the total destruction of agriculture. Plus things such as the Human Development Index rely on such things - that's more important than economic growth, although at the moment they're closely tied.

Your point is a salient one in that when our population first started growing beyond the means to sustain itself, there were more than enough resources in the rest of the world to sustain it (particularly given that we owned most of it at the time anyway). What will we do for living standards when the rest of the world catches up and starts competing for meat and grain and and fertilizer etc? We simply won't be able to pay for our western lifestyles. We can't globalise our way out of it because the rest of the world is in the same boat with the same problem.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Already Britain has more population than it can possibly feed by itself.

Source?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This is the internet forum, not the comments section on a news story.

Topics evolve.

Either deal with it, or promote your candidature to become a moderator and push for a new hardline policy on keeping to the topic.

I read Paul's comment as being somewhat humorous. And it certainly is somewhat amusing how quickly this thread has strayed onto topics not remotely connected with the start.
 

Darandio

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Last year, our self sufficiency was only 68% in terms of fruit and vegetables.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...s-that-could-be-produced-at-home-9574238.html

“The UK is currently 68 per cent self-sufficient in foods which can be produced here,” the report said. “There has been a steady decline in this level over the last 20 years and levels of self-sufficiency in fruit and vegetables has fallen the most.

However, you could obviously increase that by growing more of what can be produced here, but it's not likely to happen on grounds of cost.
 

yorksrob

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Darandio

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Many thanks for posting that.

My pleasure.

There was also a piece that has relevance on one of the episodes of 'Rip Off Britain: Food' that have been airing for the last fortnight on BBC One.

A major talking point was why we import so much chicken from Asia and South America. One argument was of course that it does work out much cheaper when you factor in labour in this country, but the main reason was that we simply don't produce enough chicken here to meet demand.
 

David

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A major talking point was why we import so much chicken from Asia and South America. One argument was of course that it does work out much cheaper when you factor in labour in this country, but the main reason was that we simply don't produce enough chicken here to meet demand.

News to me!

The factory I work, only kills about 1.8 - 2 million locally sourced chickens a week.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Last year, our self sufficiency was only 68% in terms of fruit and vegetables.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...s-that-could-be-produced-at-home-9574238.html



However, you could obviously increase that by growing more of what can be produced here, but it's not likely to happen on grounds of cost.

Thanks, but as your last sentence indicates, what that article states is simply that we don't currently grow as much fruit and vegetables as we eat. That's a long way from yorksrob's claim that we can't possibly grow as much food as we eat. Grounds of cost in part very like means 'could but we don't because importing is currently cheaper'

I asked because I thought the suggestion that we can't grow as much food as we need seemed surprising to me - I'm inclined to suspect that it isn't correct, but I don't know for sure, and couldn't find anything online on a quick search that gave an answer either way.
 
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TheKnightWho

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Your point is a salient one in that when our population first started growing beyond the means to sustain itself, there were more than enough resources in the rest of the world to sustain it (particularly given that we owned most of it at the time anyway). What will we do for living standards when the rest of the world catches up and starts competing for meat and grain and and fertilizer etc? We simply won't be able to pay for our western lifestyles. We can't globalise our way out of it because the rest of the world is in the same boat with the same problem.

We will do what has always happened throughout history - be absolutely fine, as technology is always catching up.

The reason the earth can sustain 7 billion people these days is not because people are suddenly much more keen on having sex with each other, but because technologically the earth can feed around 7 billion people. Yes there are droughts and famines, but realistically they don't tend to kill all that many people when compared to that global figure. Even Maoist China's Great Leap Forward (the worst famine of all time) killed only a few tens of millions compared to the 3.5 billion people on earth at the time. Not even 1 percent.

(I'm not trying to make light of the fact that it was a horrendous famine - my point is that globally it didn't make an enormous amount of difference. However, the gigantic leap backwards in technology in China that occurred for ideological reasons is exactly why there were such food shortages (as well as grain exports to the USSR as well) - technology is the key to population, and far more than people really appreciate.)
 
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radamfi

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We will do what has always happened throughout history - be absolutely fine, as technology is always catching up.

Population forecasts seem to indicate a peak of around 9 to 10 billion, so I don't think food is the main problem given we can cope with feeding 7 billion at the moment. We've been discussing the food supply at length when surely the environmental cost of all these people on the earth is of greater concern. Do you believe that technology will fix the issues of global warming, waste and pollution?
 
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