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HST sets and originally planned formations - 2 catering vehicles for XC as well?

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delt1c

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Initially the Craigintiny sets carried SC prefix. This must have been a rare sight in London
 
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hexagon789

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Initially the Craigintiny sets carried SC prefix. This must have been a rare sight in London

I've seen a photo of a Deltic on a London-Arbroath special with an SC branded Mk3a TSO behind the loco and the Chronicles of Napper details an instance of a Edinburgh-York-London with SC branded Mk3s as part of the formation in 1979.
 

Helvellyn

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It wasn't so much the location as what was in the space before hand given that in relevant 3B FOs it was previously luggage space.
Half of the Mark 3B FOs were (11083-11101) were built from new with the payphones, so that kiosk will be as built.

The Western Region TFs had a luggage rack removed to install a payphone. Interestingly the only Eastern Region TFs fitted with payphones were 41041 and 41066, which were in the Tees-Tyne and Yorkshire Pullman sets that also retained a TRFK.

My 1990 Platform 5 combined volume shows that Mark 3 catering vehicles were only just starting to have payphones fitted. The Mark 2F catering conversions (RLOs/RFBs) had the payphones fitted on conversion. This was in place of the luggage stack in the RLOs, but adjacent to the buffet but in First Class for the RFBs.

I think a handful of Mark 1 Miniature Buffets (RMBs) also had payphones fitted. The phone kiosk was installed by sealing up the passenger door located between the actual buffet and the store cupboard in the centre vestibule!
 

hexagon789

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Half of the Mark 3B FOs were (11083-11101) were built from new with the payphones, so that kiosk will be as built.

That explains the window alteration, always seemed a bit strange to have changed it for the phone booth but not of it was designed into the build.

The Western Region TFs had a luggage rack removed to install a payphone. Interestingly the only Eastern Region TFs fitted with payphones were 41041 and 41066, which were in the Tees-Tyne and Yorkshire Pullman sets that also retained a TRFK.

My 1990 Platform 5 combined volume shows that Mark 3 catering vehicles were only just starting to have payphones fitted. The Mark 2F catering conversions (RLOs/RFBs) had the payphones fitted on conversion. This was in place of the luggage stack in the RLOs, but adjacent to the buffet but in First Class for the RFBs.

I think a handful of Mark 1 Miniature Buffets (RMBs) also had payphones fitted. The phone kiosk was installed by sealing up the passenger door located between the actual buffet and the store cupboard in the centre vestibule!

Rather than RMB, could it have been the 3 RBR which went into GEML Mk2 sets, unless those sets never had phone provision?
 

Helvellyn

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Rather than RMB, could it have been the 3 RBR which went into GEML Mk2 sets, unless those sets never had phone provision?
The RMBs were allocated to CrossCountry when they got phones I believe. Some of the Anglia RBRs also got them. I think they were opposite the buffet counter. Interestingly the 1990 Platform 5 Combined volume shows 1693 as having a payphone fitted although it was one of the VIP Charter Fleet vehicles.
 

hexagon789

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The RMBs were allocated to CrossCountry when they got phones I believe. Some of the Anglia RBRs also got them. I think they were opposite the buffet counter. Interestingly the 1990 Platform 5 Combined volume shows 1693 as having a payphone fitted although it was one of the VIP Charter Fleet vehicles.

I forgot XC had RMBs until the late-1980s/early 1990s. Somehow I associate their sets with Mk1 RBR then 2f RFBs
 

DenbyTerrier

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Hi, first time poster, hope you don’t mind me adding to this thread. Stumbled across it whilst researching railtours that ran on my local route, the Penistone Line, late 80s and early 90s. Attached are details of a HST formation that ran on the route with 40513 (intercity exec saloon) included. However it looks to have been marshalled between first class vehicles, not next to the power car. Would be interested in any info posters may have on why it was included on this railtour, was it for catering provision perhaps? There is another catering vehicle included in the rake, making a 2+9 set. Thoughts, comments, info, much appreciated, thanks!551B4A04-952A-4B43-98D4-C7477A186502.png
 

hexagon789

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Hi, first time poster, hope you don’t mind me adding to this thread. Stumbled across it whilst researching railtours that ran on my local route, the Penistone Line, late 80s and early 90s. Attached are details of a HST formation that ran on the route with 40513 (intercity exec saloon) included. However it looks to have been marshalled between first class vehicles, not next to the power car. Would be interested in any info posters may have on why it was included on this railtour, was it for catering provision perhaps? There is another catering vehicle included in the rake, making a 2+9 set. Thoughts, comments, info, much appreciated, thanks!View attachment 86308
It looks like a "Pullman" set given the 3 TFs and only 3 TSs but with the IC Exec saloon replacing a TRUK. Perhaps one was unavailable for the sets previous service working and it wasn't replaced by the time of the railtour?
 

DenbyTerrier

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It looks like a "Pullman" set given the 3 TFs and only 3 TSs but with the IC Exec saloon replacing a TRUK. Perhaps one was unavailable for the sets previous service working and it wasn't replaced by the time of the railtour?
Thanks, that makes sense, very possible. The days of such an interesting working passing through are long gone!
 

hexagon789

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Thanks, that makes sense, very possible. The days of such an interesting working passing through are long gone!
It was the most logical thing I could think of, given the three TFs and the position of the Executive saloon.

Yes, not as many interesting workings of that nature now
 

WesternLancer

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Hi, first time poster, hope you don’t mind me adding to this thread. Stumbled across it whilst researching railtours that ran on my local route, the Penistone Line, late 80s and early 90s. Attached are details of a HST formation that ran on the route with 40513 (intercity exec saloon) included. However it looks to have been marshalled between first class vehicles, not next to the power car. Would be interested in any info posters may have on why it was included on this railtour, was it for catering provision perhaps? There is another catering vehicle included in the rake, making a 2+9 set. Thoughts, comments, info, much appreciated, thanks!View attachment 86308
Welcome to the forum @DenbyTerrier

This all rang a bell but I could not at first recall why (having not been on, nor seen the tour).

But I'm pretty sure it was because in a relatively recent issue (in the last year probably) there was an obituary for the founder of Hertfordshire Railtours and or an associated article in the Friends of the NRM journal "NRM Review" which mentioned a number of pioneering HST tours organized by him, making use of HST stock and IIRC amending their rakes to provide relevant services, inc catering, for the tours. As per this info

This was in the journal of the Friends of the National Railway Museum (but I don't keep back issues after I have read them so can't easily check.

However, I think the Friends make their journal available for sale to non members so it may be easy enough to ask them for the edition and buy a copy if desired - it was a good and interesting piece

Obviously I can't promise that it covers this tour in more detail than that web page (I doubt it does), but it was good on wider context etc and tours operated with HSTs at that time - so it may be a couple of £ or so well spent

some recent examples of the journal are here - odds on it's the Summer 2020 one but I can't be 100% sure
 

theblackwatch

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I think by the time of that tour in 1991, 40513 had reverted back to a normal TRFK rather than being the 'InterCity Executive Saloon'.
 

hexagon789

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I think by the time of that tour in 1991, 40513 had reverted back to a normal TRFK rather than being the 'InterCity Executive Saloon'.
That would make more sense then, probably a standard Pullman set in that case though it would be much longer before they were disbanded and replaced by 225s, I think the Leeds Executive "Pullman" services already had been by this point leaving only the Newcastle Tyne-Tees Pullman and the Hull Executive with HST Pullman sets iirc.
 

43096

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I think by the time of that tour in 1991, 40513 had reverted back to a normal TRFK rather than being the 'InterCity Executive Saloon'.
Presumably it was held as a spare caterer for the MML? I wasn't aware that it was converted back to normal seating.
 

Helvellyn

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Hi, first time poster, hope you don’t mind me adding to this thread. Stumbled across it whilst researching railtours that ran on my local route, the Penistone Line, late 80s and early 90s. Attached are details of a HST formation that ran on the route with 40513 (intercity exec saloon) included. However it looks to have been marshalled between first class vehicles, not next to the power car. Would be interested in any info posters may have on why it was included on this railtour, was it for catering provision perhaps? There is another catering vehicle included in the rake, making a 2+9 set. Thoughts, comments, info, much appreciated, thanks!View attachment 86308
As others have said, it looks like a Pullman set. However, I think this is one of the Midland Mainline Pullmans sets (for the Master Cutler and Robin Hood Pullman). As such, these were formed TGS-TS-TS-TS-TRFB-TF-TF-TF. It looks like the Executive Saloon has been added in as a ninth vehicle to provide extra kitchen accommodation, because the TRFB probably wouldn't have been enough if they were doing a breakfast and evening meal service for over 150 people.

The East Coast Pullmans ran with only 2 TS vehicles, not 3 (formation being TGS-TS-TS-TRFB-TF-TRFK-TF-TF), which is the other reason I think this is one of the IMLX sets.
 

theblackwatch

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Presumably it was held as a spare caterer for the MML? I wasn't aware that it was converted back to normal seating.
It's shown in my books as being in the IMLX pool along with 40501. The Platform 5 coaching stock book gives it as a lounge car in the 1993 edition, but standard in 1994, so I may be incorrect with my dates. Alternatively, Platform 5 may not have realised....
 

superjohn

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The Hertfordshire Railtours HST tours were formed of a MML set that would otherwise have been sat at Derby over the weekend. It would make sense that this would have been one of the Pullman sets.
 

hexagon789

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As others have said, it looks like a Pullman set. However, I think this is one of the Midland Mainline Pullmans sets (for the Master Cutler and Robin Hood Pullman). As such, these were formed TGS-TS-TS-TS-TRFB-TF-TF-TF. It looks like the Executive Saloon has been added in as a ninth vehicle to provide extra kitchen accommodation, because the TRFB probably wouldn't have been enough if they were doing a breakfast and evening meal service for over 150 people.

The East Coast Pullmans ran with only 2 TS vehicles, not 3 (formation being TGS-TS-TS-TRFB-TF-TRFK-TF-TF), which is the other reason I think this is one of the IMLX sets.
The Tyne-Tees Pullman set was made up to 2+9 from ~1989 iirc with an extra TS (DM-TGS-TS-TS-TS-TRFB-TF-TRFK-TF-TF-DM).
 

DenbyTerrier

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Welcome to the forum @DenbyTerrier

This all rang a bell but I could not at first recall why (having not been on, nor seen the tour).

But I'm pretty sure it was because in a relatively recent issue (in the last year probably) there was an obituary for the founder of Hertfordshire Railtours and or an associated article in the Friends of the NRM journal "NRM Review" which mentioned a number of pioneering HST tours organized by him, making use of HST stock and IIRC amending their rakes to provide relevant services, inc catering, for the tours. As per this info

This was in the journal of the Friends of the National Railway Museum (but I don't keep back issues after I have read them so can't easily check.

However, I think the Friends make their journal available for sale to non members so it may be easy enough to ask them for the edition and buy a copy if desired - it was a good and interesting piece

Obviously I can't promise that it covers this tour in more detail than that web page (I doubt it does), but it was good on wider context etc and tours operated with HSTs at that time - so it may be a couple of £ or so well spent

some recent examples of the journal are here - odds on it's the Summer 2020 one but I can't be 100% sure
Thanks for the welcome and info, will try to get my hands on a copy of the article you mention, sounds interesting.

Thanks all for the replies, mention of it being a Derby based MML pullman set is interesting.

I wonder just how many times 40513 was actually hired as a revenue generating ‘executive lounge’!?
 
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Scott Houston

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Does anybody have s picture of an Eastern region trsb around 1980/81, I'm trying to fing an image of the branding on the sides, does anyone know whether the branding on the sides said
Buffet 125 or Buffet-Bar 125, any help would be appreciated
 

Commoner

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As built the TRSBs just carried the branding "Buffet". The revised branding "Buffet-Bar 125" was applied to vehicles overhauled from August 1978. onwards. 40018-37 were ER TRSBs, and looking back on the overhaul paint dates, it would appear that the following would have received the revised branding as follows.

40018 - 26.11.78
40019 - 25.01.80
40020 - 09.08.78 (09.04.80)
40021 - 08.02.80
40022 - 04.08.78 (10.03.80)
40023 - 29.08.78
40024 - 25.01.79
40025 - 04.09.78
40026 - 09.10.78
40027 - 28.10.78
40028 - 31.03.79
40029 - 14.11.78
40030 - 31.03.79
40031 - 12.05.79
40032 - 02.06.79
40033 - 26.05.79
40034 - 09.08.79
40035 - 10.07.79
40036 - 14.12.78
40037 - 14.10.79

I have given 2 dates for 40020/22 as they may have been missed at the start of the application of the rebranding. It would appear that by 25.01.80, or at the very latest 09.04.80, all the ER/SCR TRSBs carried "Buffet-Bar 125". The TRUK vehicles received the revised branding "Restaurant 125" from August 1978 onwards. All had visited works through 1978/79 when presumably all received the revised branding, with one possible exception - 40507 which had a C4 overhaul in August 1978 and didn't visit Works again until March 1980. Hope this helps. I think it would be safe to assume that by 1981 all ER/SCR catering vehicles had the revised branding applied.
 

Scott Houston

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As built the TRSBs just carried the branding "Buffet". The revised branding "Buffet-Bar 125" was applied to vehicles overhauled from August 1978. onwards. 40018-37 were ER TRSBs, and looking back on the overhaul paint dates, it would appear that the following would have received the revised branding as follows.

40018 - 26.11.78
40019 - 25.01.80
40020 - 09.08.78 (09.04.80)
40021 - 08.02.80
40022 - 04.08.78 (10.03.80)
40023 - 29.08.78
40024 - 25.01.79
40025 - 04.09.78
40026 - 09.10.78
40027 - 28.10.78
40028 - 31.03.79
40029 - 14.11.78
40030 - 31.03.79
40031 - 12.05.79
40032 - 02.06.79
40033 - 26.05.79
40034 - 09.08.79
40035 - 10.07.79
40036 - 14.12.78
40037 - 14.10.79

I have given 2 dates for 40020/22 as they may have been missed at the start of the application of the rebranding. It would appear that by 25.01.80, or at the very latest 09.04.80, all the ER/SCR TRSBs carried "Buffet-Bar 125". The TRUK vehicles received the revised branding "Restaurant 125" from August 1978 onwards. All had visited works through 1978/79 when presumably all received the revised branding, with one possible exception - 40507 which had a C4 overhaul in August 1978 and didn't visit Works again until March 1980. Hope this helps. I think it would be safe to assume that by 1981 all ER/SCR catering vehicles had the revised branding applied.
Brilliant! That helps massively, i had heard they were rebranded but hadn't seen or heard of any concrete proof, so your detailed reply confirms it. Thanks again,
 

theblackwatch

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It's probably also worth noting the correct position of the 'Buffet' or 'Buffet-Bar 125' branding, as on one side of the vehicle is was located on the centre of the coach rather than at the left end - I presume this was done so the branding actually appeared on the buffet part of the vehicle rather than where the seating was. Here are examples of each side:



I'm sure one model manufacturer got it wrong, or perhaps I'm thinking of Hornby's model of E40021 which they incorrectly lettered as "Restaurant Buffet 125".
 

hexagon789

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It's probably also worth noting the correct position of the 'Buffet' or 'Buffet-Bar 125' branding, as on one side of the vehicle is was located on the centre of the coach rather than at the left end - I presume this was done so the branding actually appeared on the buffet part of the vehicle rather than where the seating was. Here are examples of each side:



I'm sure one model manufacturer got it wrong, or perhaps I'm thinking of Hornby's model of E40021 which they incorrectly lettered as "Restaurant Buffet 125".
They did, there was a thread over on rmweb discussing the brandings, how they were arranged and so forth
 

Scott Houston

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They did, there was a thread over on rmweb discussing the brandings, how they were arranged and so forth
Yes, i have noticed the branding in the different positions and yes hornby did get it wrong with their branding of 40021. Im in the process of modeling a full set of 254004 and I have 2 40021 coaches. Im altering the branding on one of them and reworking another to become 40504 to create the full set, so thanks all for that most helpful information!
 

hexagon789

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Yes, i have noticed the branding in the different positions and yes hornby did get it wrong with their branding of 40021. Im in the process of modeling a full set of 254004 and I have 2 40021 coaches. Im altering the branding on one of them and reworking another to become 40504 to create the full set, so thanks all for that most helpful information!
If you need any more information regards detailing, try rmweb if you haven't already. There are a few good threads over there on the subject.
 
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