HST sets and originally planned formations - 2 catering vehicles for XC as well?

[USRailFan]

The HSTs were originally planned to have two catering vehicles, and were delivered in the formation DMB-TF-TF-TRUK-TS-TS-TRSB-TS-TS-DMB for East Coast sets and DMB-TF-TF-TRUK-TS-TRSB-TS-TS-DMB for the South Wales sets, and the initial sets were delivered as such. By the time the XC HST sets were delivered, BR had found two catering vehicles to be overkill and AFAIK they were all delivered in the DMB-TF-TRUB-TS-TS-TS-TS-T(G)S-DMB formation. If the original plan to have two catering vehicles had been kept, would the XC sets also have had this (i.e. likely a DMB-TF-TRUK-TS-TS-TRSB-TS-TS-DMB formation) or would they still have had only one catering vehicle - and if so, would we still have seen the TRUB vehicles, or would the XC sets have had only the TRSB?

 

[hexagon789]

The HSTs were originally planned to have two catering vehicles, and were delivered in the formation DMB-TF-TF-TRUK-TS-TS-TRSB-TS-TS-DMB for East Coast sets and DMB-TF-TF-TRUK-TS-TRSB-TS-TS-DMB for the South Wales sets, and the initial sets were delivered as such. By the time the XC HST sets were delivered, BR had found two catering vehicles to be overkill and AFAIK they were all delivered in the DMB-TF-TRUB-TS-TS-TS-TS-T(G)S-DMB formation. If the original plan to have two catering vehicles had been kept, would the XC sets also have had this (i.e. likely a DMB-TF-TRUK-TS-TS-TRSB-TS-TS-DMB formation) or would they still have had only one catering vehicle - and if so, would we still have seen the TRUB vehicles, or would the XC sets have had only the TRSB?

Several Western sets were delivered and ran in service with two catering cars - a TRSB and a TRUK. To start with there weren't enough TRUK initially so some sets ran with two TRSB.

It was after the sets had been running for a period with the two catering cars that BR decided it was an over provision, and the TRUK were then sent to the Eastern/Scottish regions for their sets while a new design of vehicle - the TRUB, was then inserted into certain WR sets, others ran with a TRSB.

The XC sets all entered service with just a TRSB, none had TRUB and with a TGS as these had been built just as the North East-South West (as the were originally known) sets were about to enter service.

WR & ER/Sc sets had TGS added from 1980 replacing a TS.

On the ER/Sc the first sets were 2+8 with both a TRSB and TRUK, later sets had only a TRUB. The ER/Sc sets were later configured to all have only a TRUB (the seating was reclassified as first class making them TRFB) with most of the TRUK being converted into loco-hauled Mk3 buffets.

The TRUB were essentially the HST version of the Mk3 loco-hauled buffets as built (RUB) so the basic designed would've existed anyway, though whether any TRUB would've been built is more difficult to say.

 

[Commoner]

As early as the summer of 1975 BR had realised that the 2 catering vehicle provision for the WR was excessive and could only be justified on some ECML services where the demand was more buoyant. Design of the TRUB dates from that realisation and so began the HST catering car shuffle that went on for years. It’s impossible to say, what might have been. In hindsight it perhaps would have been better to have provided all HSTs with a single combined restaurant/buffet catering vehicle. A standardised fleet would have certainly helped the diagrammers. It should be remembered that the economy and the demand of restaurant type service was much stronger when the HST was originally conceived. The oil shock of the early 70s and the resulting economic downturn changed the landscape, but the full effect of that had not been felt by 1973/4 when the first HST orders were placed.

 

[USRailFan]

Slightly related: As some HST sets kept two catering cars until sometime in the 80s on the East Coast for 'Pullman' type services, was there a (short) overlap where some HST sets could've operated both with two catering vehicles AND a TGS?

 

[Commoner]

Yes most definitely. TGS vehicles entered service on the ER from October 80.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

The oil shock of the early 70s and the resulting economic downturn changed the landscape, but the full effect of that had not been felt by 1973/4 when the first HST orders were placed.

The other effect was that the HSTs were that much faster so reduced journey times, particularly on the Western Region to Bristol made the provision of full catering services unnecessary. West of England services were a second phase development.

 

[Helvellyn]

Slightly related: As some HST sets kept two catering cars until sometime in the 80s on the East Coast for 'Pullman' type services, was there a (short) overlap where some HST sets could've operated both with two catering vehicles AND a TGS?

The paper order for CrossCountry (North East - South West services) was eighteen 2+7 sets, with a final top-up order for East Coast services of 4 2+8 sets (they originally wanted seven additional sets).

The first TGS (44000) was ordered vice the last TS (which would have been 42306) of set No. 14 (253041) of the second GWML sets, which should have been 253041. However, because the ECML second batch was only four vice the wanted seven, BR did a bit of jiggling and and extra TS was ordered as part of that second ECML batch to divert a GWML set to the ECML (the seventeen TS vehicles being 42306-42322).

Still with me? 253041 was, I believe, never delivered to the GW as intended and the vehicles were formed up into NE-SW sets. To boost capacity on the ECML the first five of the eighteen intended for the NE-SW sets went to the ECML as 2+8 sets, with the remaining thirteen making up NE-SW sets along with the vehicles from 253041 and those, on paper, ordered as ECML batch 2 to give eighteen NE-SW sets.

However, because the TGS was a new vehicle type the production run (44001-44090) were ordered instead of the TS vehicles for the eighteen NE-SW sets, and as they were inserted into 253001-253040/254001-254032 the 72 released TS vehicles were used to make up the five batch 2 ECML sets plus NE-SW sets, with 4xTS in a set with one of the remaining unallocated TGS vehicles.

With me still? The catering vehicles ordered as part of the NE-SW batch were all TRUBs - five went in the batch 2 ECML sets (254033-254037) and the remaining thirteen went in GWML batch 1 sets (253001-253027) releasing TRSBs for use in the NE-SW sets. The final four TRUBs (40353-40357), which on paper had been part of the four ECML batch 2 sets also went into GWML sets, as did TRUB 40335 that would have been part of the original GWML 253041.

Basically BR was quite clever and each HST batch after batch 1 saw vehicles ordered and used in other batches that allowed for reformations (move of the TRUKs to the ECML; addition of TGS to every set). Even with the 32 set order for the ECML (batch 1) the first twenty TS vehicles (42091-42110) were built first and sent to the GW to release the TRUKs. When the TGS vehicles came along these were the vehicles removed from each set and then used to make up the TS vehicles in five NE-SW; two of these were then disbanded in the mid-1980s and the TS vehicles (42100-42107) used to replace the TRUKs in sets 254012-254019 on the ECML!

HST formations have always been very fluid due to constant reformations to meet changing service needs for over forty years.

 

[43096]

The paper order for CrossCountry (North East - South West services) was eighteen 2+7 sets, with a final top-up order for East Coast services of 4 2+8 sets (they originally wanted seven additional sets).

The first TGS (44000) was ordered vice the last TS (which would have been 42306) of set No. 14 (253041) of the second GWML sets, which should have been 253041. However, because the ECML second batch was only four vice the wanted seven, BR did a bit of jiggling and and extra TS was ordered as part of that second ECML batch to divert a GWML set to the ECML (the seventeen TS vehicles being 42306-42322).

Still with me? 253041 was, I believe, never delivered to the GW as intended and the vehicles were formed up into NE-SW sets. To boost capacity on the ECML the first five of the eighteen intended for the NE-SW sets went to the ECML as 2+8 sets, with the remaining thirteen making up NE-SW sets along with the vehicles from 253041 and those, on paper, ordered as ECML batch 2 to give eighteen NE-SW sets.

However, because the TGS was a new vehicle type the production run (44001-44090) were ordered instead of the TS vehicles for the eighteen NE-SW sets, and as they were inserted into 253001-253040/254001-254032 the 72 released TS vehicles were used to make up the five batch 2 ECML sets plus NE-SW sets, with 4xTS in a set with one of the remaining unallocated TGS vehicles.

With me still? The catering vehicles ordered as part of the NE-SW batch were all TRUBs - five went in the batch 2 ECML sets (254033-254037) and the remaining thirteen went in GWML batch 1 sets (253001-253027) releasing TRSBs for use in the NE-SW sets. The final four TRUBs (40353-40357), which on paper had been part of the four ECML batch 2 sets also went into GWML sets, as did TRUB 40335 that would have been part of the original GWML 253041.

Basically BR was quite clever and each HST batch after batch 1 saw vehicles ordered and used in other batches that allowed for reformations (move of the TRUKs to the ECML; addition of TGS to every set). Even with the 32 set order for the ECML (batch 1) the first twenty TS vehicles (42091-42110) were built first and sent to the GW to release the TRUKs. When the TGS vehicles came along these were the vehicles removed from each set and then used to make up the TS vehicles in five NE-SW; two of these were then disbanded in the mid-1980s and the TS vehicles (42100-42107) used to replace the TRUKs in sets 254012-254019 on the ECML!

HST formations have always been very fluid due to constant reformations to meet changing service needs for over forty years.

Cheers for that - a most useful explanation.

Going back to the original WR batch 1 order, there were originally 27 TRUKs ordered (40501-527) but this was cut back to 20 during production and 7 extra TS (42084-090) were constructed instead.

That first TGS (44000) is of course now preserved.

 

[USRailFan]

When did all the Western region HSTs get eight cars? Was there enough already after the top-up of TSs around 1980, or didn't it happen until the ECML was electrified and sets were cascaded away from there? Or did it happen only after privatisation?

 

[hexagon789]

Slightly related: As some HST sets kept two catering cars until sometime in the 80s on the East Coast for 'Pullman' type services, was there a (short) overlap where some HST sets could've operated both with two catering vehicles AND a TGS?

Yes, firstly because the original twin catering lasted on the ER a few years into the 1980s and secondly the Tyne-Tees and Yorkshire Pullman sets had a TRFB and TRFK until replaced by IC 225 sets; the Tyne-Tees (set HT34) actually ran as a 2+9 in 1988/89 with two catering cars.

 

[hexagon789]

When did all the Western region HSTs get eight cars? Was there enough already after the top-up of TSs around 1980, or didn't it happen until the ECML was electrified and sets were cascaded away from there? Or did it happen only after privatisation?

The first were the Laira TRUB/TRFB sets which began to receive an additional TS from ER/ScR sets from 1986, see below...

 

[Commoner]

10 WR sets gained an extra TS in May 1986. Sets 11-18/28/30 which by then were the only WR sets formed with a TRUB (40355/23/25/26/27/31/32/57/22/24). The additional TS vehicles came from a disbanded NE/SW set (42096-99), 42216/21 transferred from the ECML, and 4 TGS conversions which from memory I can't recall their numbers, but they became 42342/3/4/5. The conversion of the rest of the fleet occurred around 1990/91 when both surplus vehicles and sets from the ECML were transferred to the WR. This also entailed some conversions and TFs 41047/48/53/54 became TS vehicles.

A quirk of the 2 catering car formation saga, is that the WR acquired a TRUK/TRFK 40511, to provide extra catering provision in the set that was dedicated to the South Wales Pullman service in about 1993. The diagram was the 06.30 Swansea-Padd, with a dated fill in turn to Swindon, before returning on the 18.00 Padd-Swansea. Due to it's limited mileage it was diagrammed to S.P.Marsh at weekends for maintenance. It was initially formed in set PM 024 (originally 253 024). It operated for about a year before being withdrawn. Helvellyn might be able to shine a bit of light on this.

 

[USRailFan]

Thanks for all the info.

 

[hexagon789]

10 WR sets gained an extra TS in May 1986.

Couldn't remember if it was '86 or '88 and my Platform 5 1986 has all the WR sets as 2+7, but 1988 has 10 Laira TRUB sets as 2+8 so I went for 1988, I did think it was earlier somehow though.

 

[Helvellyn]

10 WR sets gained an extra TS in May 1986. Sets 11-18/28/30 which by then were the only WR sets formed with a TRUB (40355/23/25/26/27/31/32/57/22/24). The additional TS vehicles came from a disbanded NE/SW set (42096-99), 42216/21 transferred from the ECML, and 4 TGS conversions which from memory I can't recall their numbers, but they became 42342/3/4/5.

44082, 44092, 44095 and 44096 were the TGS vehicles converted.

• 44082 was from one of the two NE-SW sets disbanded to free up TS vehicles to replace TRUKs in 254012-254019;
• 44092 was from a disbanded ER set. It was one of three (253056-253058) that had been transferred to allow HSTs to be introduced on the MML in the early 1980s and was disbanded as part of strengthening all ER sets to 2+8 formation with 4xTS vehicles (bar the two Pullman sets); and
• 44095/44096 were part of the batch of seven TGS vehicles (44095-44101) built to give each HST depot a spare TGS as well as a spare power car - before set disbandings added to the spares pool.

The conversion of the rest of the fleet occurred around 1990/91 when both surplus vehicles and sets from the ECML were transferred to the WR. This also entailed some conversions and TFs 41047/48/53/54 became TS vehicles.

Correct. The four TFs became 42350/42351/42346/42347 respectively. Eight other TFs were also converted to TS vehicles at the same time to provide spare vehicles or bolster formations with the various changes taking place:

• 42348 - ex-41073
• 42349 - ex-41074
• 42352 - ex-41176, ex-42142 (converted to TF when 253057 transferred to ER - see note above). Not sure why it didn't regain its original number like TF 41177 did when converted back to TS 42158 in 1985.
• 42353 - ex-41171, ex-42001 (rebuilt as TF from prototype TS)
• 42354 - ex-41175, ex-42114 (converted to TF when 253056 transferred to ER - see note above). AGain, nit sure why it didn't regain its original number.
• 42355 - ex-41172, ex-42000 (rebuilt as TF from prototype TS)
• 42356 - ex-41173, ex-42002 (rebuilt as TF from prototype TS)
• 42357 - ex-41174, ex-41002 (rebuilt as TF from prototype TF)

A quirk of the 2 catering car formation saga, is that the WR acquired a TRUK/TRFK 40511, to provide extra catering provision in the set that was dedicated to the South Wales Pullman service in about 1993. The diagram was the 06.30 Swansea-Padd, with a dated fill in turn to Swindon, before returning on the 18.00 Padd-Swansea. Due to it's limited mileage it was diagrammed to S.P.Marsh at weekends for maintenance. It was initially formed in set PM 024 (originally 253 024). It operated for about a year before being withdrawn. Helvellyn might be able to shine a bit of light on this.

Sorry, not able to shed any light on it apart from the fact I believe the TRUK was marshalled with the kitchen adjacent to the power car.

 

[Helvellyn]

Might as well mention a few other catering conversions from BR days:

• TRB - TRSB converted to provide first class restaurant accommodation in GWML sets. Dia. GN101. 23F.
  • 40204-40213 converted in 1985 from 40404-40413.
  • 40221/40228 converted in 1989 from 40421/40428.
  • 40231-40233 converted in 1990 from 40431-40433.
• TRFL - TRUK converted to Executive Saloon/Lounge that could be hired out and added to any HST set. Dia. GM101. 16 loose lounge seats.
  • 40513 converted in 1985.
• TRFK - TRUK reclassified to provide first class restaurant accommodation. Had already had first class seats, but accommodation had been unclassified. Dia. GL101. 24F.
  • 40501/40505/40511 reclassified in 1985 when refurbished for use in the Yorkshire Pullman (NL based) and Tees-Tyne Pullman (HT) based, with one coach spare.
• TRFM - TRFB converted with experimental kitchen design based on the modular catering concept used on the WCML (i.e. 102xx series RFMs). For many years used in the Master Cutler set on the MML, then spare with CrossCountry from about 1993 as non-standard. Dia. GK102. 17F.
  • 40619 converted in 1987 from 40719.

Should also mention the TRUB vehicles (40300-40357) that like the TRUKs were built with 17 First Class seats but the accommodation was unclassified. The ER in 1985/86 reclassified their TRUBs as TRFBs by making the accommodation First Class and adding 400 to the coach number. The WR followed and reclassified/renumbered its ten TRUBs (40322-40327/40331/40332/40355/40357) in 1989.

 

[hexagon789]

TRFK - TRUK reclassified to provide first class restaurant accommodation. Had already had first class seats, but accommodation had been unclassified. Dia. GL101. 24F.

• 40501/40505/40511 reclassified in 1985 when refurbished for use in the Yorkshire Pullman (NL based) and Tees-Tyne Pullman (HT) based, with one coach spare

The last one of these in existence as a TRFK was bought by IÉ in 2003 and converted to a push-pull café-bar for use on the Waterford line, it was still in IC Swallow pre-conversion.

 

[WesternLancer]

Interesting stuff here. Is another aspect that the way govt funding approval for spend worked for BR was that is was in annual or so phases - so the XC (NE-SW) HSTs were towards the end of the production and at early stages of planning for a fleet BR would not have known if the Govt (HM Treasury / DfT) would approve the build of HST for that route anyway.

IIRC the size of the fleet was scaled back when govt did not agree to BRs full order request - prob in part down to the post 1979/80 economic downturn.

 

[Western Sunset]

Wasn't one of the TRUKs painted in NSE livery for something or other?

 

[Ashley Hill]

As a slight aside,how did TGS 44000 get around the TOPS system? AFAIU it couldn't cope with 000 numbers hence 40122 instead of 40000 etc.

 

[Commoner]

Sorry, not able to shed any light on it apart from the fact I believe the TRUK was marshalled with the kitchen adjacent to the power car.

Brilliant summaries Helvellyn. Saved a lot of people looking for a concise summary of HST build/formations a lot of time I looked up some of my notes/observations and 40511 was marshalled conventionally between TF and TS trailers in PM24 set. The interesting thing about this TRUK/TRFK was that it was that along with 40513/4/8 it was delivered directly to the ER back in 1977 and yet finished up on its originally intended region.

The executive lounge TLUK 40513 which was a private hire vehicle was marshalled between PC and leading TF when in use.

 

[Helvellyn]

As a slight aside,how did TGS 44000 get around the TOPS system? AFAIU it couldn't cope with 000 numbers hence 40122 instead of 40000 etc.

That only applied to locomotives. Lots of coaches (and DMU, DEMU and EMU) vehicles were numbered xx000.

There is a separate thread about whether HSTs were DEMUs or not where I point out that the prototype power cars were built as locomotives 41001/41002 but when remembered when the whole prototype set was reclassified as Class 252 (which saw the trailers remembered as well) the power cars, as DMBs, became 43000/43001, because they were no longer locomotives.

[NOTE - please find this thread in the Traction sub-forim if anyone wants to join that debate!]

 

[Ashley Hill]

Indeed,I remember 55000 well. Thanks for replying.

 

[theblackwatch]

Some excellent summaries of developments by @Helvellyn and @Commoner there - including one or two things I'd completely forgotten about! A couple of comments....

#16 - 40513 was converted to a Lounge car in 1983 rather than 1985. It was displayed at Marylebone in March 83, still in blue/grey (but possibly modified internally?) and emerged later in the year in IC livery (paint date 21/10/83).

#17 - It was 40513 which went to Ireland rather than one of the other 3. I'm pretty sure it had been converted back to a standard TRFK in the 1990s after its spell as a lounge car.

#19 - This was 40516, done for a promotion for display at Bournemouth (I think) in 1986 connection with the introduction of the 442 units, I think it had a 442-style interior fitted.

 

[43096]

The last one of these in existence as a TRFK was bought by IÉ in 2003 and converted to a push-pull café-bar for use on the Waterford line, it was still in IC Swallow pre-conversion.

40501 became 977984 for the NMT
40505 became 41179 (insurance replacement for 41049/050 after Southall), later 46015
40511 became 41180 (insurance replacement for 41049/050 after Southall), currently at Wabtec Doncaster for conversion to TGFB for ScotRail

 

[43096]

Interesting stuff here. Is another aspect that the way govt funding approval for spend worked for BR was that is was in annual or so phases - so the XC (NE-SW) HSTs were towards the end of the production and at early stages of planning for a fleet BR would not have known if the Govt (HM Treasury / DfT) would approve the build of HST for that route anyway.

IIRC the size of the fleet was scaled back when govt did not agree to BRs full order request - prob in part down to the post 1979/80 economic downturn.

The last sets ordered were the 4 extra for East Coast. BR had wanted more in that batch but DoT said no. With such a struggle convincing government for East Coast, BR took the view that further new sets for XC, Midland Main Line, Trans-Pennine etc were unlikely to be authorised and decided to close the production line.

 

[Helvellyn]

Some excellent summaries of developments by @Helvellyn and @Commoner there - including one or two things I'd completely forgotten about! A couple of comments....

#16 - 40513 was converted to a Lounge car in 1983 rather than 1985. It was displayed at Marylebone in March 83, still in blue/grey (but possibly modified internally?) and emerged later in the year in IC livery (paint date 21/10/83).

Thanks, I hadn't realised it was converted so early. I've found a couple of photos online and hadn't realised either that initially it had no yellow stripe to above the lounge accommodation. Other points to note - all doors have 'Private' in white letters on the red stripe and all doors have handles - usually on HST catering cars the doors adjacent to the catering area couldn't be opened externally and were emergency release only on the inside.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/95430950@N07/20232998012/

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/137574-hst-tluk-and-tcsd/

 

[Helvellyn]

Apologies for the slight detour off topic but mini quiz via this link - https://www.flickr.com/photos/pics-by-john/16120141353/sizes/h/ - who can identify what's unusual?

 

[43096]

Apologies for the slight detour off topic but mini quiz via this link - https://www.flickr.com/photos/pics-by-john/16120141353/sizes/h/ - who can identify what's unusual?

If we go back to your post #7, the 'W' prefix would seem erroneous?

 

[theblackwatch]

I seem to recall reading that 42111/112 (and maybe 113?) were given 'W' prefixes at Derby - it may be that @Commoner gave me the info.