HST Sleepers?

[Backroom_boy]

A recent journey on the sleeper to Cornwall was really marred by the jerky stop/starts shunting between coaches at each stop.

Could this be improved if the sleeper set was re-engineered to have motive power at both ends giving a smoother journey, no need to uncouple en route and, if class 43 power cars are used, would have the cool nose cone affect?

Expensive but still cheaper than new stock like the Caledonian stock.

 

[Journeyman]

A recent journey on the sleeper to Cornwall was really marred by the jerky stop/starts shunting between coaches at each stop.

Could this be improved if the sleeper set was re-engineered to have motive power at both ends giving a smoother journey, no need to uncouple en route and, if class 43 power cars are used, would have the cool nose cone affect?

Expensive but still cheaper than new stock like the Caledonian stock.

Seriously???

 

[HST43257]

Are 57s on the Night Riviera not TnT?

 

[JonathanH]

Are 57s on the Night Riviera not TnT?

Only between Reading and Paddington and even then the back one is shut down.

 

[Energy]

The sleeper barely runs as it is, it has DfT financial support and if significant change in stock is required (it isn't, doors might need changing though at some point) I can see it getting killed of post covid.

 

[JonathanH]

If some future change in services led to two 5-car 802s becoming surplus from daytime workings, maybe it could become possible to do an internal refit. Seems unlikely because the sleeper is never likely to carry the lease cost of the 802 but would produce other savings such as not having to maintain the class 57s and sleeper stock.

One problem is that three units would be needed to cover two workings.

 

[mmh]

If some future change in services led to two 5-car 802s becoming surplus from daytime workings, maybe it could become possible to do an internal refit. Seems unlikely because the sleeper is never likely to carry the lease cost of the 802 but would produce other savings such as not having to maintain the class 57s and sleeper stock.

One problem is that three units would be needed to cover two workings.

I don't think underfloor engines would be received well on a sleeper.

 

[JonathanH]

I don't think underfloor engines would be received well on a sleeper.

Make the carpet a bit thicker? The engines aren't that noisy on a 802 and all railed vehicles make noise in any case.

 

[DB]

A recent journey on the sleeper to Cornwall was really marred by the jerky stop/starts shunting between coaches at each stop.

Could this be improved if the sleeper set was re-engineered to have motive power at both ends giving a smoother journey, no need to uncouple en route and, if class 43 power cars are used, would have the cool nose cone affect?

Expensive but still cheaper than new stock like the Caledonian stock.

It could be done and wouldn't be that expensive - but if they were going to do it then they'd probably already have done so.

The sleeper barely runs as it is, it has DfT financial support and if significant change in stock is required (it isn't, doors might need changing though at some point) I can see it getting killed of post covid.

They have a dispensaation for the doors, so not necessarily an issue.

Make the carpet a bit thicker? The engines aren't that noisy on a 802 and all railed vehicles make noise in any case.

It would be far more noticeable on a sleeper, plus the ride is fairly poor.

 

[Clansman]

Far cheaper to have new gangways and couplers with greater energy absorbtion than to have another locomotive for little benefit.

It's one of the few things the CAF Mk5 sleepers do better than the Mk3 sleepers.

 

[trebor79]

I don't think underfloor engines would be received well on a sleeper.

Make the carpet a bit thicker? The engines aren't that noisy on a 802 and all railed vehicles make noise in any case.

To be honest, I *hate* underfloor engines, but the only time I've ever noticed them on an 80x is when they drop to a very low idle speed just before shutting down, there's a bit of vibration at that point. You really can't hear them other than a very faint turbo whistle. The air conditioning and rail noise is much more significant.
The traction motors are quite noisy though.
Some 80x vehicles seem to suffer from an issue whereby when the doors seals inflate it causes and annoying continuous whistling from the ventilation system.

I don't think multiple units are suitable for sleeper stock, but the 80x aren't far off.

 

[irish_rail]

A recent journey on the sleeper to Cornwall was really marred by the jerky stop/starts shunting between coaches at each stop.

Could this be improved if the sleeper set was re-engineered to have motive power at both ends giving a smoother journey, no need to uncouple en route and, if class 43 power cars are used, would have the cool nose cone affect?

Expensive but still cheaper than new stock like the Caledonian stock.

What part of the journey was this on? Unfortunately there are one or two drivers who are less concerned with a smooth ride on the sleepers, however the majority do care I can assure you.
The other possibility was there was a dead engine on the back which has happened alot lately and seriously impedes the drivers ability to give a smooth ride.

 

[Irascible]

The bit you might want off an HST for a less shunty ride is the bar coupler, surely. I'm going to assume reusing powercars was looked at when they were being retired ( did they ever look at using a DVT though? ).

 

[Journeyman]

The bit you might want off an HST for a less shunty ride is the bar coupler, surely. I'm going to assume reusing powercars was looked at when they were being retired ( did they ever look at using a DVT though? ).

Of course it wasn't looked at. It wouldn't work.

 

[Irascible]

Of course it wasn't looked at. It wouldn't work.

I'm envisaging the convesation being more or less the content of our two posts... given some of the odd ideas that *are* being attempted I'm not gonna rule out someone going "how about we..." though.

 

[ainsworth74]

A recent journey on the sleeper to Cornwall was really marred by the jerky stop/starts shunting between coaches at each stop.

Perhaps that's just bad luck? I've done the Night Riviera a few times and don't recall having any issues with jerky start/stops?

 

[Journeyman]

Perhaps that's just bad luck? I've done the Night Riviera a few times and don't recall having any issues with jerky start/stops?

It's just consistency of driving. The new stock on Caledonian Sleeper is better, but it was an issue there too.

 

[DB]

Of course it wasn't looked at. It wouldn't work.

Well, it could do but would require fitting a compatible multiple working system to the 57 and DVT, and through wiring the stock, and the DVT would basically be dead space. Probably not much point given the use of the stock.

THe advantage of HST power cars would have been common traction with a fleet they already operate, two power cars so not reliant on a single loco, and they would only have neeeded to rewire the sleeper carriages - the seated ones could have been replaced by standard HST stock. However, the time to do that, if they were going to, would have been before they refurbished them, and when there were Scotrail sleepers coming off lease which could have served as a short-term stopgap while the existing sets were rewired.

The bit you might want off an HST for a less shunty ride is the bar coupler, surely.

HSTs don't have bar couplers - they use Alliance couplers, which are basically fixed-head buckeyes and fully compatible with standard drophead buckeyes. The sleeper stock has drophead buckeyes, and when these are used they will perform pretty much the same as the HST type. The only drawhook and shackle coupling is that between the stock and the loco.

 

[Backroom_boy]

What part of the journey was this on? Unfortunately there are one or two drivers who are less concerned with a smooth ride on the sleepers, however the majority do care I can assure you.
The other possibility was there was a dead engine on the back which has happened alot lately and seriously impedes the drivers ability to give a smooth ride.

In the platform at Penzance the train was top and tailed by two 57s. (Didn't check if we set off with the rear one) so hauling a dead engine is a strong possibility.

 

[irish_rail]

In the platform at Penzance the train was top and tailed by two 57s. (Didn't check if we set off with the rear one) so hauling a dead engine is a strong possibility.

Explains alot. Unfortunately that dead 130 tonnes on the back does make life more difficult both pulling away and stopping. Always hate it when I've got a dead one on the back. Control don't seem to consider passenger comfort when rostering these extra locos! Would be better if extra loco was tucked in at the front not the back.

 

[Backroom_boy]

Explains alot. Unfortunately that dead 130 tonnes on the back does make life more difficult both pulling away and stopping. Always hate it when I've got a dead one on the back. Control don't seem to consider passenger comfort when rostering these extra locos! Would be better if extra loco was tucked in at the front not the back.

Don't suppose it could be easily set up to be remotely driven in tandem with the front one?

 

[DB]

Don't suppose it could be easily set up to be remotely driven in tandem with the front one?

The 57/3s and /6s are not fitted with any multiple working system, and the stock is not through wired.

 

[Irascible]

Well, it could do but would require fitting a compatible multiple working system to the 57 and DVT, and through wiring the stock, and the DVT would basically be dead space. Probably not much point given the use of the stock.

THe advantage of HST power cars would have been common traction with a fleet they already operate, two power cars so not reliant on a single loco, and they would only have neeeded to rewire the sleeper carriages - the seated ones could have been replaced by standard HST stock. However, the time to do that, if they were going to, would have been before they refurbished them, and when there were Scotrail sleepers coming off lease which could have served as a short-term stopgap while the existing sets were rewired.

HSTs don't have bar couplers - they use Alliance couplers, which are basically fixed-head buckeyes and fully compatible with standard drophead buckeyes. The sleeper stock has drophead buckeyes, and when these are used they will perform pretty much the same as the HST type. The only drawhook and shackle coupling is that between the stock and the loco.

I was understanding that the HST powercars wouldn't work - given HST trailers have different electricals to normal LHCS ( and presumably the sleepers ). I mean anything could be made to work with effort whether it's a good idea or not, like say, power doors, but there's not even a template to convert a sleeper to a HST trailer electrically, presumably. Are there any nightstar gen units left? ( firmly tongue in cheek ).

I had vague memories that one type of older remote control used existing circuits ( the PA? ) so you wouldn't need to rewire the stock itself, or yes that would also be a somewhat excessive idea.

Thanks for the correction on the HST trailers - misremembering "fixed" couplers I think.

 

[43096]

I was understanding that the HST powercars wouldn't work - given HST trailers have different electricals to normal LHCS ( and presumably the sleepers ). I mean anything could be made to work with effort whether it's a good idea or not, like say, power doors, but there's not even a template to convert a sleeper to a HST trailer electrically, presumably.

Converting a sleeper to HST electrical is not really different to converting a day coach to HST electrical - which has been done before.

The point now is that if it was going to happen it would have been done by now.

 

[DB]

I was understanding that the HST powercars wouldn't work - given HST trailers have different electricals to normal LHCS ( and presumably the sleepers ). I mean anything could be made to work with effort whether it's a good idea or not, like say, power doors, but there's not even a template to convert a sleeper to a HST trailer electrically, presumably. Are there any nightstar gen units left? ( firmly tongue in cheek ).

Loco hauled Mk3s take a standard ETS feed, which is then converted into 415v 3-phase by an MA set. HST trailers take the 415v 3-phase direct from the power cars. Converting loco-hauled to HST is therefore a case of re-wiring to take the 3-phase direct (plus the control cable between the power cars). It's been done with a number of coaches - including a fair proportion of the current XC fleet. It's also been done the other way, with ex-HST catering vehicles converted to loco-hauled.

So far as I am aware the sleepers are electrically no different to the seated loco-hauled Mk3s, so there is precedent. I believe that the royal train actually has dual wiring (it can be seen on photos), able to take standard ETS from the loco or 3-phase from the onboard generator.

Of course, with HST power cars another option may be to fit a genset in the power car luggage van, or in the BSO, supplying standard ETS, then no rewiring of the stock would be needed.

Not likely to happen now anway - but at some point they will need to replace the 57s with something, although that might end up being 67s or 68s.