HST Trailers

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by O L Leigh, 18 Feb 2013.

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  1. O L Leigh

    O L Leigh Established Member

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    I was just idly wondering...

    Given that each pair of HST powercars had either 7 or 8 trailers between them, where have all the trailers gone?

    By my estimation there have been three powercars scrapped as a consequence of major collisions together with a number taken out of passenger use by Nitwit Rail for the New Measurement Train. So there really should be a pool of HST trailers spare.

    So, allowing for this level of withdrawal within the fleet of powercars, why have both XC and GC been required to convert loco hauled Mk3s into HST trailer specification in order to make up their HST formations? Why couldn't they have used genuine HST trailers? And where are the HST trailers that they could have used?

    O L Leigh
     
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  3. Royston Vasey

    Royston Vasey Established Member

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    Ignoring the few crash victims, they're almost all in use. Following withdrawal of VWC and VXC HSTs, GNER lengthened their Class 254s to 2+9 with the surplus TS coaches. That was the big transfer. This led to various power cars being stored off lease for some years while their coaches were absorbed elsewhere. On reintroduction, XC and GC in particular were left to scrape together whatever stock they could, i.e. surplus HST TFs and LHCS TF and TS vehicles.

    There are odd buffets around but even some of those are now being converted to TS vehicles to lengthen FGW's sets (the 2+7s with microbuffets used as commuter stock)
     
  4. theblackwatch

    theblackwatch Emeritus Moderator

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    Not only did GNER increase the 254s from 2+8 to 2+9, FGW (and its predecessors) also increased their rakes from 2+7 to 2+8 - from memory they had around 25 sets in 2+7 formation. Also, a few coaches were also scrapped as a result of the accidents which resulted in the power cars being written off.
     
  5. Royston Vasey

    Royston Vasey Established Member

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    As I understand it, Western region Class 253s were lengthened all to 2+8 with new build in the 80s rather than displaced stock?
     
  6. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    Wasn't there also a "pool" of spare power cars?
     
  7. theblackwatch

    theblackwatch Emeritus Moderator

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    From memory only 8 sets were strengthened in the 80s (253011-18), mainly using coaches from 2 disbanded Cross Country sets.
     
  8. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    There were originally 95 complete HST rakes built, so it is true that there was a small number of spare power cars constructed.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    The introduction of the TGS vehicles retrospectively after all the HST rakes had been delivered had an impact on the formations of the trains – I think in general that the TGS carriages replaced a trailer standard, although some of the first sets delivered had been formed with a pair of catering vehicles that was a very short lived arrangement.

    I think that I’ll probably do a bit of back reading later to refresh my memory of what precisely have been the main developments in terms of HST formations over the years, but in short as has been adeptly described by other posters above the HST sets are all longer now than they were when they were delivered: All of the HSTs except for Grand Central’s operate, or could operate, in 2+8 formation (Crosscountry’s HSTs operate as 2+7 sets of course but have sufficient spare standard class vehicles to operate as 2+8 as was initially proposed when they were refurbished), with East Coast’s sets further lengthened to 2+9 formation, when only the East Coast class 254 trains were originally delivered as 2+8 formations and all of the Great Western and Crosscountry sets were originally delivered as 2+7 sets.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Ok, so the following has occurred to the production HST fleet:

    There were originally 95 complete sets, delivered as follows:
    27 sets (2+7) – Great Western
    32 sets (2+8) – East Coast (Including 5 allocated to the Scottish region)
    14 sets (2+7) – West of England
    18 sets (2+7) – Crosscountry
    4 sets (2+8) – East Coast (Additional)

    The individual vehicles were split into the following types:
    Catering vehicles
    37 x TRSBs – Numbered in 400xx series, later renumbered in 404xx series.
    20 x TRUK – Numbered in 405xx series. Order cut from 27 carriages.
    Quickly rebuilt as loco-hauled RFMs, Royal train vehicles and a couple of FOs.
    57 x TRUB – Numbered in 403xx series, reclassified as TRFB in 407xx series.

    Leaving 94 catering vehicles after the TRUKs had been converted.

    167 x FO

    339 x TSOs

    Later joined by 102 TGS vehicles

    A total of 702 carriages when the TRUKs are discounted.

    The HST sets are now formed as:
    Great Western – 53 x 8-car sets (424 carriages)
    And 17 spare vehicles (441).
    East Coast – 14 x 9-car sets (126 carriages)
    And 5 spare vehicles (131).
    Midland Mainline – 10 x 8-car sets (80 carriages)
    And 4 spare vehicles (84).
    Crosscountry – 5 x 7-car sets (35 carriages)
    And 5 spare carriages (40).
    Grand Central – 3 x 6-car sets (18 carriages)
    And no spare carriages (18).

    This gives a total of:
    170 FOs.

    365 TSOs.

    74 full catering vehicles remaining, and 19 micro-buffets converted from TSOs employed by FGW.

    92 TGS vehicles remaining in passenger stock.

    And 5 TCKs converted for Crosscountry in the 45xxx series from loco-hauled mark 3 TSOs.

    A total of 725 carriages.
     
    Last edited: 18 Feb 2013
  9. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    I amke that 85 sets in operation (86 including the NMT)- is this right?
     
  10. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    Yes, that is correct.
     
  11. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    Have all the unaccounted for power cars been written off, or are there spares?
     
  12. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    If I have counted correctly then there are 193 of the original 197 production power cars still in service, including the three in use with Network Rail. So with 190 power cars split over 85 passenger sets, then there are definitely some spares. East Midlands Trains f'rinstance have 24 power cars to work with ten carriage rakes.
     
  13. Royston Vasey

    Royston Vasey Established Member

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    Top work on the above by the way!! Have all the off-lease FGW buffet cars now been taken back on lease and converted to trailer standards?

    Only three production power cars have been scrapped and there are definitely no off-lease examples, so there should be 194 in service. 002 to 198 minus 011/019/173?

    Did you count 43089? That was taken on by EMT as recently as 2008 or 2009
     
  14. 43167

    43167 Member

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    Total production powercars built 197.

    Only 3 production powercars have been written off. 011, 019 & 173.

    013, 014 & 062 are the NMT cars.

    The other 191 powercars are still in passenger service.

    So total still active altogether: 194
     
  15. Bridge189

    Bridge189 Member

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    AFAIK ECs five spares are 2x TFs a TGS, 2 TS and a Buffet which is virtually never used as its different in many ways to the rest, could be wrong though.
     
  16. 43167

    43167 Member

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    EC spare coaches. 2 buffets, 40705 & 40805 which is one of the ex-MML 'Project Rio' buffets, TF 41190, TS 42354 & TGS 44077.
     
  17. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    Reportedly there is one off-lease FGW buffet vehicle that remains as such, 40745 (Just in case anyone wants to check).
    Yup, 43089 was included. It's ok - It turns out that I miscounted by one, got thrown a little by the MTU renumberings. There are most definitely 194 active power cars as you say, including the three with Network Rail. Thanks for the correction.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Yup, that's what I've got it listed as, too. Glad to see that the numbers concur. :)
     
  18. Yew

    Yew Established Member

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    Hmm, With the spare carriages hanging aroud, a few LHCS conversions, and some spare power cars, it could be possible to make an extra HST.
     
  19. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    I guess the spares are around as the power cars need more maintenance than the trailer rakes? Therefore trailer rakes can be kept in service whilst power cars are worked on by using spares.
     
  20. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    I was under the impression that all of the 191 43 power cars are in regular passenger service. In any case, the greatest number are in service now than at any point.

    [Apologies if that doesn't make sense, it was the best explanation I could come with at the time! Thanks for putting the effort into the number crunching guys!]
     
    Last edited: 21 Feb 2013
  21. BestWestern

    BestWestern Established Member

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    Excellent work sprinterguy!

    One query to further muddy the waters, you say that there were 102 TGS vehicles added after initial introduction, and that they 'replaced' TSO cars. What happened to those TSOs? Apologies if I misread something, just curious!
     
  22. Helvellyn

    Helvellyn Established Member

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    The Guard originally rode in the DMB (Driver Motor Brake), aka the power car. However, the NUR were unhappy with the ride quality and pushed BR to put the Guard's accommodation in one of the trailers. This led to the development of the TGS.

    The prototype TGS was 44000, followed by the first production run of 90 vehicles, 44001-44090. These 90 vehicles were built instead of the 90 TS vehicles that would have been formed in the 18 North East-South West 253 2+7 sets. The Class 253 and 254 units built before that had a TS removed to accommodate the TGS, with the resultant TS vehicles then formed up as the TS vehicles (along with a TGS) in the new build sets! All-in-all vehicles were shuffled around to get the right formations.
     
  23. BestWestern

    BestWestern Established Member

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    I see, thanks ;)
     
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