HSTs replacing Voyagers for the Cross Country services.

[Philip]

With many redundant HST sets soon to be available, should CC consider taking them on to replace their notorious Voyager fleet?


It'd mean longer trains, better fuel efficiency, arguably a more comfortable experience for passengers and a bit more interest for enthusiasts. So why not?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

With many redundant HST sets soon to be available, should CC consider taking them on to replace their notorious Voyager fleet?


It'd mean longer trains, better fuel efficiency, arguably a more comfortable experience for passengers and a bit more interest for enthusiasts. So why not?

The HST stock that's left is rotten, they're plagued with corrosion problems, the underfloor skirting is patched together, the engine blocks in the power cars are close to being life expired, the electrics are pretty much shot, they're not DDA compliant without a fabulous amount of money being spent on them, and I'd fully expect the RAIB to have a little something to say about the garden shed bolted onto the front of the power car that BREL laughingly called a driver's cab, when they publish the full Stonehaven dossier.

Yes, they'll cost half as much as buying in Hitachi AT300 stock, but with a quarter of the life expectancy if you're lucky.

So yes, lots of why nots.

 

[Dr Hoo]

With many redundant HST sets soon to be available, should CC consider taking them on to replace their notorious Voyager fleet?


It'd mean longer trains, better fuel efficiency, arguably a more comfortable experience for passengers and a bit more interest for enthusiasts. So why not?

Could you provide some figures to support your fuel efficiency claim, please?

 

[43096]

This again. How many times have we gone over this now?

 

[py_megapixel]

Voyagers are best part of 30 years newer than HSTs, you'd have to pay to PRM mod them and they'd need an interior refurb too to get them up to same standard. Plus as @Philip Phlopp said some of them are in rather poor condition.

They were great when they were introduced, I'm sure, but they've had their day, and enthusiasts are unfortunately just going to have to accept that.

 

[Philip]

Could you provide some figures to support your fuel efficiency claim, please?

One huge engine vs 4 or 5 very big engines which aren't fuel efficient in themselves. It's obvious the Voyager will consume more fuel.

 

[DB]

Clearly, if this was going to happen it would have done so before loads of Mk3s were scrapped. It's therefore petty safe to assume that it's not going to happen - and the suggestions were always that they would be in addition to Voyagers, not instead of.

 

[Philip]

Could new mk5s be built and attached to class 43 power cars?

 

[DB]

Could new mk5s be built and attached to class 43 power cars?

No - completely different electrical systems. Would require a bespoke build, and why would anyone do that?

 

[py_megapixel]

With all due respect, why are so many people so obsessed with reusing the 43s?

They're approaching 50 years old and not in good condition. The route for them is preservation or scrap.

 

[swt_passenger]

With many redundant HST sets soon to be available, should CC consider taking them on to replace their notorious Voyager fleet?

No they shouldnt. My prediction is that XC will take on a significant number of the soon to be off-lease 221 and 222, and it’s actually far more likely they’ll bin the HSTs they have already got. They can go to the West Country or Scotland and find use on secondary routes

But the whole subject has been covered numerous times already this year, how have you managed to miss all the previous discussions?

 

[yoyothehobo]

I think we have been unkind and there is plenty of use for them yet...

It most likely wont be train shaped though

 

[py_megapixel]

I think we have been unkind and there is plenty of use for them yet...

It most likely wont be train shaped though

I can imagine them as a receptacle for carbonated beverages.

 

[yoyothehobo]

I wonder if anyone has ever done a coke can in the intercity livery...

 

[The Planner]

One huge engine vs 4 or 5 very big engines which aren't fuel efficient in themselves. It's obvious the Voyager will consume more fuel.

Read this thread
It is incredible wishful thinking if you believe HSTs will come back regardless.

 

[A0wen]

One huge engine vs 4 or 5 very big engines which aren't fuel efficient in themselves. It's obvious the Voyager will consume more fuel.

Not necessarily true - it also depends on the load and the way such engines are used.

So if by having 2 engines you are having to work them almost flat out, whereas the lesser engines can be used at 2/3rds then the latter are likely to be more fuel efficient.

 

[LOL The Irony]

One huge engine vs 4 or 5 very big engines which aren't fuel efficient in themselves. It's obvious the Voyager will consume more fuel.

Not necessarily, just watch this. (For reference, a 5 car 221 has 95 liters of displacement running at once vs 75ish in a HST)

 

[CBlue]

and a bit more interest for enthusiasts. So why not?

I wasn't aware the service being interesting for enthusiasts was a key target of the railway network or TOC's.

 

[the sniper]

I wasn't aware the service being interesting for enthusiasts was a key target of the railway network or TOC's.

They make up a far greater proportion of passengers than prior to 2020! Maybe it should be?

 

[The Ham]

I wasn't aware the service being interesting for enthusiasts was a key target of the railway network or TOC's.

It reminds me of someone who was on Dragon's Den and listed two (fairly small) groups who might be interested in their product and then said "the gift market" as if that would increase the numbers significantly beyond the already listed groups.

In reality most being brought as a gift would be because the feel into the other groups.

Likewise most enthusiast travel is either work related or because they are going somewhere for leisure. The fact that they choose to holiday so that they can use a certain line or service is neither here or there as they aren't just traveling for no reason.

Yes some do, but it's fairly limited.

 

[Pete_uk]

The HST stock that's left is rotten, they're plagued with corrosion problems, the underfloor skirting is patched together, the engine blocks in the power cars are close to being life expired, the electrics are pretty much shot, they're not DDA compliant without a fabulous amount of money being spent on them, and I'd fully expect the RAIB to have a little something to say about the garden shed bolted onto the front of the power car that BREL laughingly called a driver's cab, when they publish the full Stonehaven dossier.

Yes, they'll cost half as much as buying in Hitachi AT300 stock, but with a quarter of the life expectancy if you're lucky.

So yes, lots of why nots.

So you're not fully ruling it out as a bad idea then?

 

[fgwrich]

This again. How many times have we gone over this now?

Should we kill two birds with one stone and suggest 442s for XC too? Between HSTs for XC and 1001 uses for the 442, they seem to be this forums must suggested stock for solutions that barely exists.

 

[43096]

Should we kill two birds with one stone and suggest 442s for XC too? Between HSTs for XC and 1001 uses for the 442, they seem to be this forums must suggested stock for solutions that barely exists.

There's a few 365s and Mark 4s sat around as well!

In fact why not go the whole way and say 442s and Mark 4s with HST power cars...

 

[py_megapixel]

Should we kill two birds with one stone and suggest 442s for XC too? Between HSTs for XC and 1001 uses for the 442, they seem to be this forums must suggested stock for solutions that barely exists.

There's a few 365s and Mark 4s sat around as well!

In fact why not go the whole way and say Mark 4s with HST power cars...

Nah, how about fitting diesel engines to 442s and using them to replace Turbostars? Now that's an idea worthy of this forum...

 

[43096]

Nah, how about fitting diesel engines to 442s and using them to replace Turbostars? Now that's an idea worthy of this forum...

I knew there was a reason why the engines in the Northern Irish DEMUs shouldn't have been scrapped.

 

[CBlue]

I knew there was a reason why the engines in the Northern Irish DEMUs shouldn't have been scrapped.

Perhaps the engines from scrapped HST power cars can be fitted to the 365's while we're at it? Perfect replacement for Voyagers.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Perhaps the engines from scrapped HST power cars can be fitted to the 365's while we're at it? Perfect replacement for Voyagers.

That will be quite difficult, given the Class 365s are to be converted into tri-voltage units. Two driving vehicles will be removed from a pair of units leaving six vehicles, one pantograph/transformer vehicle will be converted to have a 1500V DC compatible pantograph and associated switchgear will transform the 1500V DC to 750V DC and connect in with the existing 750V DC bus. This will enable them to operate services shared with the Tyne and Wear Metro.

 

[ABB125]

That will be quite difficult, given the Class 365s are to be converted into tri-voltage units. Two driving vehicles will be removed from a pair of units leaving six vehicles, one pantograph/transformer vehicle will be converted to have a 1500V DC compatible pantograph and associated switchgear will transform the 1500V DC to 750V DC and connect in with the existing 750V DC bus. This will enable them to operate services shared with the Tyne and Wear Metro.

Are you sure? I heard that the class 365s were being shortened to 3 cars (for speedier performance), and the pantograph and associated stuff being replaced with 755V wibble generators (the extra 5V makes all the difference!).
Whilst the vehicles removed from each set were going to be inserted into the class 442s to provide additional seating capacity on the West Highland line (electrified with two sets of third rail for double the power)? Assuming of course that the single motor car has enough power to shift five trailers, especially when the traction motors are replaced with those from scrapped class 313/314/315 units on a 3-for-2 basis!

 

[Clansman]

With all due respect, why are so many people so obsessed with reusing the 43s?

Also let's not forget the set in stone law of the land that stipulates that the Mk5s and IETs are the compulsory natural successor for anything IC, LHCS, or HST replacement!

 

[37424]

The idea that your going to replace much newer trains that comply with accessibility legislation with much older trains that require significant amount of money to make them compliant is laughable really.

Anyway despite Scotrail with a fleet of 20 Voyagers spare in a couple of years time I don't imagine any other destination than XC