Huddersfield-York through stopping services?

[YorksLad12]

Hello!

Why aren't the hourly Huddersfield-Leeds and Leeds-York stopping services run as a through service?

Accepting for the moment that they are now run by different operators, and that the Huddersfield service arrives 11 minutes after the York service departs (so not a quick win)... you'd free up P13 at Leeds, meaning you could have the Sheffield semi-fasts terminate there and run longer trains via Castleford off P17 (or vice versa). Northern did something similar with the Halifax-Hull service which frees up platform space at Leeds.

Has it ever been tried before, or considered and rejected?

 

[PHILIPE]

Hello!

Why aren't the hourly Huddersfield-Leeds and Leeds-York stopping services run as a through service?

Accepting for the moment that they are now run by different operators, and that the Huddersfield service arrives 11 minutes after the York service departs (so not a quick win)... you'd free up P13 at Leeds, meaning you could have the Sheffield semi-fasts terminate there and run longer trains via Castleford off P17 (or vice versa). Northern did something similar with the Halifax-Hull service which frees up platform space at Leeds.

Has it ever been tried before, or considered and rejected?

You've answered it. Different operators even if it may be an praiseworthy idea..

 

[YorksLad12]

You've answered it. Different operators even if it may be an praiseworthy idea..

Ah - but I've only answered it for the last couple of years. TPE only took over Hudds-Leeds from Northern in 2018.

 

[Ianno87]

Hello!

Why aren't the hourly Huddersfield-Leeds and Leeds-York stopping services run as a through service?

Accepting for the moment that they are now run by different operators, and that the Huddersfield service arrives 11 minutes after the York service departs (so not a quick win)... you'd free up P13 at Leeds, meaning you could have the Sheffield semi-fasts terminate there and run longer trains via Castleford off P17 (or vice versa). Northern did something similar with the Halifax-Hull service which frees up platform space at Leeds.

Has it ever been tried before, or considered and rejected?

Trouble is, by the time a stopper from Huddersfield reaches Leeds, the next fast is right behind it. That fast is headed for York too, so the stopper would have to be overtaken at Leeds (and sit for at least 9-10 minutes or so) in order to continue onwards towards York as a stopper.

Vice versa in opposite direction.

 

[30907]

Ah - but I've only answered it for the last couple of years. TPE only took over Hudds-Leeds from Northern in 2018.

But the standalone York-Leeds stopper is also very recent - previously it worked through from the Calder Valley alternating with the Selby train.
But Ianno87 has the real answer.

 

[northernchris]

They could link up the Huddersfield - Bradford and Leeds - York stopper, which would free up platform space at Leeds and provide a 5th train per hour between Leeds and Bradford although they would need to play around with the paths at the Huddersfield end to make this work

 

[YorksLad12]

Fair enough, and I realise that threading the stopping service between the five fast TPE services either side of Leeds would be tricky, to say the least. But I do still wonder why it wasn't done when when there were fewer TPE services. Mind you, 20 years ago we were in the middle of Leeds 1st, so there wouldn't have been the longer trains and shortage of platforms that we have now!

 

[30907]

Fair enough, and I realise that threading the stopping service between the five fast TPE services either side of Leeds would be tricky, to say the least. But I do still wonder why it wasn't done when when there were fewer TPE services. Mind you, 20 years ago we were in the middle of Leeds 1st, so there wouldn't have been the longer trains and shortage of platforms that we have now!

I think the primary reason was to provide a Bradford-York connection, possibly Bradford-Garforth etc, which was a bigger flow than off the Huddersfield stoppers. It was also operationally convenient, so has stuck!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

They could link up the Huddersfield - Bradford and Leeds - York stopper, which would free up platform space at Leeds and provide a 5th train per hour between Leeds and Bradford although they would need to play around with the paths at the Huddersfield end to make this work

The Huddersfield to Bradford used to run through to Selby, back when it was the "Grand Tour" under Serco/Abellio. Though that was just an exercise to free up a diagram or two.

A longish wait at Leeds isn't a show-stopper though, as not many will actually use it to get across Leeds.

 

[RailWonderer]

Personally I think TPE should take on the Leeds-York stopper so Northern can use more 195s on other routes. They do the Man - Huds - Leeds ones anyway and they have spare 185s. Playing around with timings at Huddersfield could allow for some spare room if you let one follow a fast instead.

 

[willgreen]

Personally I think TPE should take on the Leeds-York stopper so Northern can use more 195s on other routes. They do the Man - Huds - Leeds ones anyway and they have spare 185s. Playing around with timings at Huddersfield could allow for some spare room if you let one follow a fast instead.

The Leeds-York stopper is normally a Sprinter isn't it?

 

[RailWonderer]

The Leeds-York stopper is normally a Sprinter isn't it?

It’s been a 2 car 195 more recently, but not always.

 

[YorksLad12]

The Leeds-York stopper is normally a Sprinter isn't it?

It was a three-car 195 when I caught it last.

 

[RailWonderer]

Starting from a few days ago Northen collaborated with RTT to show all diagrams so the Northen random unit generator is no longer turn up and wonder what you’ll get thankfully.

 

[tbtc]

Just get rid of the stand alone stopper from Leeds to York - there are (in normal times) seven trains an hour on the direct line between the cities (ignoring the circuitous Harrogate service) - four TPE services from Lancashire, one XC service from Devon, one Northern service from Lancashire and one stopper - that's a couple of services more than a few years ago, but TPE introduced an additional service when they doubled up their Newcastle services which gave them a bigger share of the ORCATS pot and Northern doubled their services by making the Blackpool service non-stop and introducing a stand alone stopper to partly replace it.

If we are to have a state controlled railway then we don't need to worry about individual TOCs running several short trains to try to get a £££ - we can concentrate on a better balanced service.

Maybe we cut one of the TPE services to Newcastle, so that Hull can get its "fast" Manchester service back, meaning you can have a balanced four fast Leeds - York services per hour (TPE to Newcastle, TPE to Scarborough, XC to Scotland, TPE to Teesside) with space for an hourly stopper to run reliably. Running lots of short services per hour is so wasteful.

As far as I remember, the situation twenty years ago was that Northern Spirit ran a half hourly Manchester Victoria - Calder Valley - Leeds - MIcklefield service with hourly extensions to both York and Selby - the opening of Brighouse complicated the Calder Valley services (and the days of the Manchester - Leeds - Selby - Leeds - Huddersfield - Wakefield - Huddersfield - Leeds - Manchester diagrams which seemed guaranteed to have a 158 trundling between Huddersfield and Wakefield whilst a Pacer on the same rota was struggling to cope with passengers in Leeds or Manchester.

 

[SuperNova]

Maybe we cut one of the TPE services to Newcastle, so that Hull can get its "fast" Manchester service back, meaning you can have a balanced four fast Leeds - York services per hour (TPE to Newcastle, TPE to Scarborough, XC to Scotland, TPE to Teesside) with space for an hourly stopper to run reliably. Running lots of short services per hour is so wasteful.

The TransPennine Route Upgrade on the core route is being done on the basis of 4 fast services, 2 semi-fast and 2 stoppers. TPE won't be stripping back one of its services to York or beyond.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

One advantage of a standalone Leeds-York stopper is that it reduces (at least theoretically) usage of the through platforms at Leeds, which due to the unbalanced nature of the station are more useful for services terminating from or starting for routes towards the south and west. A standalone York and/or Selby/Hull stopper can use the underutilised east-facing bays (P7 and P14) which otherwise see little use.

 

[YorksLad12]

Just get rid of the stand alone stopper from Leeds to York - there are (in normal times) seven trains an hour on the direct line between the cities (ignoring the circuitous Harrogate service) - four TPE services from Lancashire, one XC service from Devon, one Northern service from Lancashire and one stopper - that's a couple of services more than a few years ago, but TPE introduced an additional service when they doubled up their Newcastle services which gave them a bigger share of the ORCATS pot and Northern doubled their services by making the Blackpool service non-stop and introducing a stand alone stopper to partly replace it.

If we are to have a state controlled railway then we don't need to worry about individual TOCs running several short trains to try to get a £££ - we can concentrate on a better balanced service.

Maybe we cut one of the TPE services to Newcastle, so that Hull can get its "fast" Manchester service back, meaning you can have a balanced four fast Leeds - York services per hour (TPE to Newcastle, TPE to Scarborough, XC to Scotland, TPE to Teesside) with space for an hourly stopper to run reliably. Running lots of short services per hour is so wasteful.

As far as I remember, the situation twenty years ago was that Northern Spirit ran a half hourly Manchester Victoria - Calder Valley - Leeds - MIcklefield service with hourly extensions to both York and Selby - the opening of Brighouse complicated the Calder Valley services (and the days of the Manchester - Leeds - Selby - Leeds - Huddersfield - Wakefield - Huddersfield - Leeds - Manchester diagrams which seemed guaranteed to have a 158 trundling between Huddersfield and Wakefield whilst a Pacer on the same rota was struggling to cope with passengers in Leeds or Manchester.

My memory is that there were two Leeds-Huddersfield stoppers, one of which had taken over the Leeds-Dewsbury-Hebden Bridge stopper which later made a comeback. And four TPE services per hour (in those days I had occasional need to catch the 1840, which started at Leeds). Fewer, longer trains or shorter, more frequent ones? One sweats the infrastructure, the other sweats the rolling stock.

The TransPennine Route Upgrade on the core route is being done on the basis of 4 fast services, 2 semi-fast and 2 stoppers. TPE won't be stripping back one of its services to York or beyond.

They won't *then* but they might want/have to do it *now*, for different reasons.

One advantage of a standalone Leeds-York stopper is that it reduces (at least theoretically) usage of the through platforms at Leeds, which due to the unbalanced nature of the station are more useful for services terminating from or starting for routes towards the south and west. A standalone York and/or Selby/Hull stopper can use the underutilised east-facing bays (P7 and P14) which otherwise see little use.

True. Combining 13 & 14 might have helped here, though it would have been difficult to deliver given the lift, escalator and the narrow platform space that would have resulted. We need another viaduct south of the station...

 

[37424]

The TransPennine Route Upgrade on the core route is being done on the basis of 4 fast services, 2 semi-fast and 2 stoppers. TPE won't be stripping back one of its services to York or beyond.

That really depends on demand post covid

I don't see much value in a Huddersfield-York stopper when the major Towns and Cities on that route already have a fast through service, if Leeds Huddersfield get electrified first then it stops the local services going electric unless you want to employ a bi-mode, if and when the section from Leeds to York is electrified then it might be more useful to offer a Bradford FS or Skipton to York service.

 

[YorksLad12]

Then we run into the same problem above of taking up a through platform. But, the Leeds North West services are quite tightly timetabled. If any more station were built along any of the routes it might make sense to break Leeds-Bradford FS services out and not interwork them with anything, or interwork them with something else (York via Garforth, or Harrogate if electrified next, or even the Huddersfield stoppers).

 

[SuperNova]

That really depends on demand post covid

I don't see much value in a Huddersfield-York stopper when the major Towns and Cities on that route already have a fast through service, if Leeds Huddersfield get electrified first then it stops the local services going electric unless you want to employ a bi-mode, if and when the section from Leeds to York is electrified then it might be more useful to offer a Bradford FS or Skipton to York service.

It doesn't really depend on demand post Covid though. The railway is running at around a third of it's current usage without hospitality, sporting events, gigs, holidays etc - not to mention those job losses and other being encouraged to WFH by HMG. When Covid subsides, then reducing frequency of any services between major cities would be impalpable for stakeholders and customers.

Then you look at performance. When the stoppers were merged between Leeds and Manchester, it created all manner of issues. The performance gained by re-splitting those services again was huge.

 

[edwin_m]

It doesn't really depend on demand post Covid though. The railway is running at around a third of it's current usage without hospitality, sporting events, gigs, holidays etc - not to mention those job losses and other being encouraged to WFH by HMG. When Covid subsides, then reducing frequency of any services between major cities would be impalpable for stakeholders and customers.

It will certainly be palpable if people find their service is much less convenient because it's reduced from half-hourly to hourly or whatever, or reducing the frequency west of Leeds involves cutting through service to somewhere further east.