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Huffington Post Article:Britain's Privatised Rail Network Makes Millions For Foreign

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HH

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My point was that if it ultimately takes more money to run the service than it receives via the fare box then it should not be considered profitable. If NR is receiving additional money via the government then it cannot be charging every operator the correct amount for the wear and tear done to the infrastructure by their trains. Surely the honest way to go about this would be to subsidise each operator as required, as that would show more clearly which routes are paying for themselves and which aren't?

That's a simplistic reading of the situation. A very big chunk of NR's costs is the interest they pay on loans they've had to take out because the government hasn't funded the infrastructure directly. Should that really be charged to the TOCs?

Beyond that NR don't split their central costs (and there are quite a lot of those) or things like their property income. Therefore you either end up with arbitrary splits, which rather invalidates the method, or adding business cost merely to show that Peter is robbed to pay Paul, which seems rather pointless to me, given that it's not going to affect any decisions.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Had BR still existed, it could theoretically be running services in other EU member states in the same way as NS, DB, etc., are doing here... But then we're getting into the realms of "what if..." which is rather futile.

Well we could always set up BR again to so do. However the EEC seems to actually prefer our model...

Recent NS happenings suggest that there are tensions involved when a state run company bids for business let by the state.
 
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WatcherZero

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Simple answer is operationally the railway is profitable, it returns enough farebox revenue to pay for operating and renewal costs and purchase of rolling stock (though this has only been the case for the last couple of years due to the explosion in passenger numbers since privatisation allowing the network to reach such a point). The revenue isn't however enough to cover investment in expanding or improving the infrastructure. Its this that the government subsidises through the credit card.
 
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yorksrob

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Simple answer is operationally the railway is profitable, it returns enough farebox revenue to pay for operating and renewal costs (though this has only been the case for the last couple of years due to the explosion in passenger numbers since privatisation). The revenue isn't however enough to cover investment in expanding or improving the infrastructure. Its this that the government subsidises through the credit card.

Does it cover renewal costs ? I would consider the replacement of life expired rolling stock on Northern as a renewal, yet it's unlikely that this will be replaced without taxpayer intervention.

In truth, in may ways we've never had it so good with the railway so, having watched the privatisation fiasco roll out through its low years, I'm not sure why the issue has become prominent now.

There's been a piece in The Times (apologies, can't quote as I don't have an online subscription) and the following things stood out:

It's often quoted that TOC's make on average 3% profit, yet no one seems to attempt to quantify what this actually amounts to. It would be interesting to compare this to the amount of private sector investment into the railways (Rail Magazine always managed to come up with a figure, so presumably its possible).

The other thing I noticed about the article was that while NR's shortcomings were alluded to, there was little mention of the travails of Railtrack, which makes me suspect that the Establishment is softening us up for another ill considered sell-off.

As rail users, we have at least been shielded from the worst aspects of de-regulation (Needless to say, Professor Richard Wellings' pro-deregulation opinion was quoted) which leads me to think that perhaps tackling the basket case and unmitigated failure that is bus deregulation should be a bigger priority in the public mind !
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Once the government decided to franchise the passenger railway to the private sector, it was inevitable that the public sector was excluded.
Private firms would not be keen to bid if there was a public outfit with bottomless pockets in competition to them.

On top of that, once all the BR TOCs were in private hands, there was no-one left in the public sector with the skills and resources to run trains.
That is pretty much still the case.
Also, what UK state bodies are prepared to risk their taxpayers' money to operate trains? They have other jobs to do.

Foreign state railways are also restructuring and are having to allow external competition.
So you have Trenitalia running domestic services in Germany, or Italo (SNCF) running domestic trains in Italy.
Competition works both ways.

All very plausible arguments, none of which dispel the feeling that we are being taken for a ride. As the public, we are told that it isn't possible to have an effective system in which profits are recycled directly into the railway, yet it's ok to recycle those profits into someone else's railway ?

Frankly, if the Establishment are that committed to private sector ownership, it would probably be politically expedient for them to exclude all state owned organisations from the process wherever they are based, because the current situation robs the argument of credibility.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The cost of the rolling stock would be insurmountable though and I think will be the nail in the coffin for all renationalisation attempts. We just can't afford to buy back all the stock from the ROSCOs. There ARE other countries that would lease the stock if we "hardballed" them (sure, poorer ones, but if they offer more than we do, then we wouldn't get the stock which we would need).

Aren't we moving to a situation in which the state pays for rolling stock which is then maintained by the manufacturer (such as the Javelin, the class 800 etc). In which case, it's hard to see what added value the ROSCO system actually provides.

Wasn't the whole idea behind it to provide an ongoing market for rolling stock that would be self sustaining, although this patently hasn't happened. I suspect the better idea would be to have it owned by a branch of the infrastructure owner, which negates any problems with changing franchises and cascades etc. Then if newly constructed rolling stock doesn't go to the ROSCO's, they will eventually wither as their remaining stock gets withdrawn.
 

glbotu

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Aren't we moving to a situation in which the state pays for rolling stock which is then maintained by the manufacturer (such as the Javelin, the class 800 etc). In which case, it's hard to see what added value the ROSCO system actually provides.

Wasn't the whole idea behind it to provide an ongoing market for rolling stock that would be self sustaining, although this patently hasn't happened. I suspect the better idea would be to have it owned by a branch of the infrastructure owner, which negates any problems with changing franchises and cascades etc. Then if newly constructed rolling stock doesn't go to the ROSCO's, they will eventually wither as their remaining stock gets withdrawn.

I mean, yes, but timescales matter. How long do you think that the Class 379s owned by Angel trains are going to be around? While the amount of stock they own could dwindle, that could happen over 30 - 40 years at which point everything will be different. The proposed timescale of re-nationalisation would be over the next 8 years, when the ROSCOs will still own probably 70-90% of the rolling stock. In 8 years time there will likely still be HSTs around, not to mention something like the 156s which will still have 10 years in them (going by the country's track record with rolling stock).
 

misterredmist

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I just don't know how rail re-nationalisation could work. The Civil Servants, politicians etc generally made a pig's ear of The Railway, under invested , left many regions with atrocious services and appalling rolling stock.....all they seemed interested in were the routes to and from London...... remember the c*ck up with the WCML franchise ? HMG had to pay out compo due to the fact that said Civil Servants had bodged the Franchise spec.....

I don't get the rose tinted glasses of the re-nationalise set...... the Railways were a pariah, a hot potato, which needed to be got rid of and given to some "mug(s)" who could take up the burden and make a go of it..... Nobody had any desire to put any money into the railways, certainly not the tax payer

Of course, it's a whole different ball game now - people see the massive increase in utilisation of the railways. The fact that privatised companies can make a go of it, but that, of course, problems remain with the railway, mean that many are saying " oh , now we have seen people use the railway and there's light at the end of the tunnel, well, thanks for fixing our horrible problem , we'll take it back off you now, if you don't mind"......

Another reason not to trust HMG / civil servant employees with the railway - who made the decision to have trains of ONLY 4 or 5 coach voyagers on the X-country routes from Aberdeen to Plymouth ????? Absolutely senseless and ill thought out , but I bet it was a Civil Servant decision and not a private company one......

I would have no objection to a National Rail , tax payer owned or part owned, consortium bidding for franchises
 

Blamethrower

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The private sector works well in other industries because there is genuine competition, therefore you can make an informed choice

Take an example of someone that works in London and has to commute in from say Flitwick every day. What choice do they have? none except taking an overcrowded, expensive, often late Thameslink train.

That is not choice, that is not privatisation, that is a Monopoly surely?

Perhaps if that person lived in Bedford, they would have the choice of Thameslink or East Midlands trains but to the casual observer, a train is a train, some are fast, some are slow and that is it.

British railways are NOT privatised, they are monopolised so that the government has ready made scapegoats when NR cock it up
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Another reason not to trust HMG / civil servant employees with the railway - who made the decision to have trains of ONLY 4 or 5 coach voyagers on the X-country routes from Aberdeen to Plymouth ????? Absolutely senseless and ill thought out , but I bet it was a Civil Servant decision and not a private company one......

Actually, the original XC decisions were squarely down to Virgin.
This was in 1997/8, just after privatisation, when the new TOCs had a great deal of autonomy.
VT had a 15-year franchise and a commitment to replace all the existing stock.
They ordered initially (I think) 74 Voyagers, and later increased the order by 4 more for Holyhead, all pretty much without DfT interference.
They were private contracts between Virgin, BN (this was pre-Bombardier), ROSCO, banks and VT's equity partners.
By 2002, Railtrack and the WCRM project had collapsed, destroying the franchise business case, which was put into limbo with a "letter agreement" (management contract) for several years. DfT/SRA dictated what spend there was on the franchise from then on.
In the shootout with DfT/SRA, VT fell out over terms for running the XC franchise, and it was put out to tender with Arriva winning.
VT wanted to buy more stock for XC but the SRA would not contemplate it saying it would not "throw money at the XC franchise" which was still unprofitable.
And things haven't changed much since then (2006).

So the original decisions were down to Virgin, and the refusal to do anything about it since was down to the SRA/DfT.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Does it cover renewal costs ? I would consider the replacement of life expired rolling stock on Northern as a renewal, yet it's unlikely that this will be replaced without taxpayer intervention..

Some of that "taxpayer intervention" will come from premia paid by certain TOCs, though. That kind of cross-subsidy would be completely hidden from view were it BR.
 

pemma

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Arcus' share in Angel Trains has been purchased by AMP Capital Investors and PSP Investments, so if the media realise that's a transfer from a British investment company to Australian and Canadian investment companies.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I think only 2 current franchises were directly awarded to "foreign state-owned" TOCs - GA and Scotrail.
ATW, Chiltern and XC were awarded to Arriva when it was in UK hands - Arriva has not won a franchise while in DB hands.
Northern and Merseyrail are 50/50 Abellio and UK's Serco.
LOROL was 50/50 Laing/MTR when awarded.
Connex SC/SE were in French hands (not SNCF) and then went to Govia (majority UK).
That leaves just GA and Scotrail awarded to Abellio as wholly-owned by foreign TOCs, one recently competed, the other coming up shortly.
I can't think of any others.

DB has bought its way into the rail market by buying EWS, Chiltern and Arriva - not without financial issues.
SNCF has bought Eurostar UK and has a minority interest in Keolis (Govia/TPE).
Any UK company could have done the same, but they didn't.
The UK stock market isn't keen on rail investments, they're held to be too risky for the returns on offer.
It's the same for much of the utility and commodity sectors.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Basically - running a TOC is very hard work for not really much return - once certain operations come up (I will spare naming them) - the actual competition will be very limited I suspect. The days of (a) being bailed out (b) obtaining compensation from RT /NR are long gone. Particularly as the latter is now "nationalised" and whilst rocking on for the moment - is almost certainly to have a challenging future.
 

yorksrob

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Some of that "taxpayer intervention" will come from premia paid by certain TOCs, though. That kind of cross-subsidy would be completely hidden from view were it BR.

This is true (and I don't think such cross-subsidies happening within the railway were a bad thing) But then again, weren't some of our South Eastern TOC's, which may be profitable now, receiving support at the time out lovely slammers were being replaced ?
 

455driver

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Actually, the original XC decisions were squarely down to Virgin.
This was in 1997/8, just after privatisation, when the new TOCs had a great deal of autonomy.
VT had a 15-year franchise and a commitment to replace all the existing stock.
They ordered initially (I think) 74 Voyagers, and later increased the order by 4 more for Holyhead, all pretty much without DfT interference.

So the original decisions were down to Virgin, and the refusal to do anything about it since was down to the SRA/DfT.
I am no fan of Virgin (all style over substance) but I am going to defend them here because their original proposal was for the trains to be formed of 5 and 6 coaches, DaFT/SRA baulked at the cost and dictated that the order be made up of 4 and 5 coach trains, that decision was purely down to DaFT/SRA!

Feel free to leave out this important bit wont you! ;)
 

LateThanNever

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Basically - running a TOC is very hard work for not really much return - once certain operations come up (I will spare naming them) - the actual competition will be very limited I suspect. The days of (a) being bailed out (b) obtaining compensation from RT /NR are long gone. Particularly as the latter is now "nationalised" and whilst rocking on for the moment - is almost certainly to have a challenging future.
Whilst running a TOC may be hard work - isn't everything? - especially being poor - there's a hell of a lot of 'company appealing' cashflow...
As NR debt has been nationalised - as it always should have been - any government in its right senses (even, I suspect, this one, whose right senses I cannot vouch for) would borrow for infrastructure now as interest rates are so low. The more especially if Corbynomics and People's Quantitive Easing comes to pass!
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I am no fan of Virgin (all style over substance) but I am going to defend them here because their original proposal was for the trains to be formed of 5 and 6 coaches, DaFT/SRA baulked at the cost and dictated that the order be made up of 4 and 5 coach trains, that decision was purely down to DaFT/SRA!
Feel free to leave out this important bit wont you! ;)

If that's the case I wasn't aware of it.
 
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Since neither the SRA nor DfT Rail existed when the Voyagers were ordered I think that is unlikely...

However the SRA refused them to be subsequently extended.
 

455driver

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Since neither the SRA nor DfT Rail existed when the Voyagers were ordered I think that is unlikely...

However the SRA refused them to be subsequently extended.

So it was whichever acronym the government department holding the purse strings at the time was called! :roll:
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I think people have sussed that we live in a global economy. The question is whether state railways running trains and making a profit in the UK, which is then used to subsidise services at home, is a good thing.

If things were reversed, and we still had a BR, which was running services in Europe and thus helping to runt he railways here at a lower cost to the user and taxpayer, i think we'd be delighted. I certainly would. I'm not sure that the residents of those other countries would be so pleased.

Good to see the common sense and commercial logic in your posting being used to combat Socialist propaganda upon this very matter.
 
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Groningen

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If this is so, than National Express should not be allowed to run the S-bahn in Nurnberg, Germany. Than only should railcompanies run services in their own country.
 

pemma

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If this is so, than National Express should not be allowed to run the S-bahn in Nurnberg, Germany. Than only should railcompanies run services in their own country.

Yes. Arriva also had numerous services in Europe before it was sold to DB. While First and Stagecoach both have North America operations.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Yes. Arriva also had numerous services in Europe before it was sold to DB. While First and Stagecoach both have North America operations.

Arriva still do have services across Europe.
It was only their services in Germany which were sold on to Trenitalia as part of EU approval for the DB deal.
 

pemma

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Arriva still do have services across Europe.
It was only their services in Germany which were sold on to Trenitalia as part of EU approval for the DB deal.

I was meaning Arriva were operating services in Europe when they were still a British company.
 

misterredmist

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Actually, the original XC decisions were squarely down to Virgin.
This was in 1997/8, just after privatisation, when the new TOCs had a great deal of autonomy.
VT had a 15-year franchise and a commitment to replace all the existing stock.
They ordered initially (I think) 74 Voyagers, and later increased the order by 4 more for Holyhead, all pretty much without DfT interference.
They were private contracts between Virgin, BN (this was pre-Bombardier), ROSCO, banks and VT's equity partners.
By 2002, Railtrack and the WCRM project had collapsed, destroying the franchise business case, which was put into limbo with a "letter agreement" (management contract) for several years. DfT/SRA dictated what spend there was on the franchise from then on.
In the shootout with DfT/SRA, VT fell out over terms for running the XC franchise, and it was put out to tender with Arriva winning.
VT wanted to buy more stock for XC but the SRA would not contemplate it saying it would not "throw money at the XC franchise" which was still unprofitable.
And things haven't changed much since then (2006).

So the original decisions were down to Virgin, and the refusal to do anything about it since was down to the SRA/DfT.


Many Thanks for your input , but the mind boggles as to how VT were allowed to operate such small sets...... I suppose the figures looked good to the Treasury , and sod the passenger's comfort.....
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Many Thanks for your input , but the mind boggles as to how VT were allowed to operate such small sets...... I suppose the figures looked good to the Treasury , and sod the passenger's comfort.....

To be fair to both sides, Virgin had no real idea how the passenger numbers would go, and took a conservative view at the start (also with the Pendolinos which were ordered as a mix of 8/9-car trains at first).
And the Treasury didn't get involved after the franchise deal was signed.
They just needed Virgin to deliver the premium (in those days, a reduced subsidy).
 

pemma

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To be fair to both sides, Virgin had no real idea how the passenger numbers would go, and took a conservative view at the start

And when First got awarded the West Coast franchise they launched a legal challenge where they say First's passenger estimates were unrealistically high. (First had proposed new trains as well as keeping the Voyagers while Virgin proposed new trains but releasing all the Voyagers meaning First would have had many more carriages. I imagine Virgin thought they were doing DfT a favour by allowing cascaded Voyagers to be made available to XC.)
 
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