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Huge fire in Grenfell Tower - West London

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Cowley

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This looks truly awful and has the makings of an era defining disaster for the country.
My heart goes out to the people affected by this. It must have been the most unimaginable horror being caught up in something so fast moving and devastating.
Some of the witnesses have talked of concerns about the building before this happened and it's hard to comprehend how something like this can happen in 2017.
Very upsetting.
 
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BestWestern

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It is very difficult to grasp how a fire could be allowed to spread with such ferocity in a modern day residential complex. The building was from the 1970s of course, but one assumes that Health & Safety law ensures all such buildings are up to standard. Perhaps here that wasn't the case. I can see a very heavy storm heading for the organisation who managed the property, against whom some rather fiece accusations had been made prior to this disaster.
 

YorkshireBear

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It is very difficult to grasp how a fire could be allowed to spread with such ferocity in a modern day residential complex. The building was from the 1970s of course, but one assumes that Health & Safety law ensures all such buildings are up to standard. Perhaps here that wasn't the case. I can see a very heavy storm heading for the organisation who managed the property, against whom some rather fierce accusations had been made prior to this disaster.

That is my initial thought. General practise now is for fires to be contained with enough time to evacuate the building. Especially if a £10M refurb has recently taken place. Of course it may have contained the fire, but no one noticed the fire until too late because none of the alarms went off. Again a shock after a recent £10M refurbishment....
 

najaB

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Truly tragic.

There are a lot of questions that need to be answered here, hopefully the investigation will get to the bottom of things - for the peace of mind of those affected and others living in similar buildings.
 

Pakenhamtrain

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It is very difficult to grasp how a fire could be allowed to spread with such ferocity in a modern day residential complex. .
It's quite easy sadly. Depending on what cladding is used on the outside.

This happened a couple of years ago in a very new apartment building in Docklands:
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/d...buildings-walls-says-mfb-20150427-1mukhx.html
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/f...-new-melbourne-highrises-20160216-gmvrmo.html
The cladding used on the building sent the fire upwards quickly.
 

Barn

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Sadly even with modern standards there appear to be major risks:

1 - It's generally considered safest to remain in apartments. Doors to apartments are fire doors rated for one hour. But is this long enough to evacuate such a large number of people in such a ferocious fire?

2 - Windows are often open in flats even at night time, allowing smoke an entry route into apartments and allowing flames from the floor below to set fire to curtains.
 

Bletchleyite

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It's quite easy sadly. Depending on what cladding is used on the outside.

This happened a couple of years ago in a very new apartment building in Docklands:
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/d...buildings-walls-says-mfb-20150427-1mukhx.html
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/f...-new-melbourne-highrises-20160216-gmvrmo.html
The cladding used on the building sent the fire upwards quickly.

There was mention of it recently being recladded, and some of the fire does appear to be burning on the outside.

Quite concerning if so.
 

Pinza-C55

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61653 HTAFC

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There was mention of it recently being recladded, and some of the fire does appear to be burning on the outside.

Quite concerning if so.

From eyewitness reports, the cladding does sound to have played a significant role in the way the fire spread so quickly and devastatingly. One would hope that such materials would have been tested exhaustively before being allowed to be used. One eyewitness report on BBC News in the last hour mentioned concrete sections possibly acting as "funnels" for the fire and (in conjunction with the cladding) helping it spread. The last major fire on this scale in London was the Kings Cross Tube Station fire, which behaved in ways previously not predicted (the "Trench Effect"). It could well be that this incident also shows an element of risk previously not known.

Either way though, the reports coming out about fire alarms not working, management and contractors being aggressive and intimidating residents, and several other issues are extremely worrying.
 
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IanXC

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As others have said, I am shocked that the fire compartmentalisation has failed on such a catastrophic scale. Given the systemic way in which it appears to have failed I would think very close examination will be given to what if any work may have compromised the compartmentalisation during the refurbishment.

Equally the way in which, let's remember, newly installed cladding appears to have not only burnt, but been active in transmitting the fire around the building raises many issues.

On a more day to day level, is anyone aware of how and at what frequency the fire alarm in such a building is tested? Given that even the smallest businesses are expected to test their fire alarms weekly, it would seem odd if such a complex residential building is excused such requirements. I wonder if he fire precautions log book was held on site or elsewhere.

It is worth noting that there was a fire of a similar nature a few years ago, and I'm sure it will shortly be quoted in the media: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Lakanal_House_tower_block_fire
 

Puffing Devil

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Y961 XBU

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I would say its lucky only 6 people have died when you look at the size of that building and consider how quick the fire spread
 

Barn

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On a more day to day level, is anyone aware of how and at what frequency the fire alarm in such a building is tested? Given that even the smallest businesses are expected to test their fire alarms weekly, it would seem odd if such a complex residential building is excused such requirements. I wonder if he fire precautions log book was held on site or elsewhere.

I'm not sure if there would actually be a fire alarm (beside smoke detectors in individual homes) because the fire procedures aren't based on a mass evacuation but on compartmentalization within homes. An alarm might cause people to try to evacuate down stairwells and die through smoke inhalation, contact with the fire, or even by being crushed in the panic.

However, since Lakanal, even if there isn't an audible alarm, there should really be a fire detection system and sprinklers.
 

Tetchytyke

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It's quite easy sadly. Depending on what cladding is used on the outside

There have been several similar incidents in Dubai and Sharjah with the problem being the cladding.

The Lakanal House fire is likely to be mentioned again. LBC are reporting that the Government have done nothing for four years, despite a report warning of fire dangers.

http://www.lbc.co.uk/news/london/we...vernment-sat-on-tower-fire-report-four-years/

Six people died and more than 20 hurt after Lakanal House in Camberwell caught fire in 2009.

Ronnie King, the Honorary administrative secretary of the All-Party Parliamentary Group Fire Safety & Rescue Group, told LBC that recommendations from a report on that blaze have not been properly reviewed.

He told Nick Ferrari: "The All-Party Group were looking at the issue of fire suppression in all the tower blocks with similar designs to this.

"And we understand that there are around 4,000 tower blocks that don't have fire sprinklers fitted into them.

"That was a recommendation, which was down to each local council and landlords to determine the appropriateness of this.

"We were strongly recommending this as the fire at Lakanal House spread within four minutes to the flat above and went on to kill six people regrettably.

"Our group recommended that due to the speed that the fire spread in Lakanal House, that building regulations should be reviewed. It's nearly 11 years since it has been reviewed.

"Sucessive ministers since 2013 have said they are still looking at it."

I can see it becoming a defining disaster, just like the Summerland fire of 1973 and the Valley Parade fire of 1985.
 
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Dai Corner

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The company which provided the smoke extraction system deleted the page about it on their website earlier today, but it has been archived

https://web.archive.org/web/2017061...ll-tower-london-w11-1tq-regeneration-project/


The lobby smoke ventilation system has been designed to provide the existing stairwell with protection from the ingress of smoke from a fire within a dwelling by means of a mechanical extract system.* The system has been designed to provide an average open door velocity, across an open lobby / stairwell door of 2.0m/s, this velocity is in accordance with the recommendation for a Class B pressure differential system as defined in Code of Practice BS EN 12101 Part 6: Specification for pressure differential systems Kits. (BS EN 12101-6).
The system is controlled by PLC and has links to the new fire alarm system to provide an initiating signal (one signal per floor).* Once a signal is received all the dampers will close (extract and inlet air) and all four dampers in the smoke affected lobby will then open and all dampers on the other floors are to remain closed.
A human Mechanical Interface Panel (HMI) is located within the entrance area to provide the fire and rescue service with a central override facility to close all dampers in a single operation.
Each ventilated lobby is provided with a key override, switch located within the stairwell, at each storey level providing the fire and rescue service with a local override facility to open the dampers on any one floor.
Once one switch has been activated to open the dampers on a given floor then all other floor switches will be locked out.* Once the activated switch is returned to its original position another floor can be activated.
There are two pairs of smoke extract fans (one duty and one standby in each pair) one pair on the roof top plant room roof and one pair mounted within the new ductwork section on Level 02.* There is also a single environmental fan located in the ductwork on Level 02.
The environmental fan and the smoke extract fans on Level 02 will have a set of bypass dampers so that in environmental mode the smoke fan is isolated from the system and in smoke mode the environmental fan is isolated from the system.
The control system will also have pressure sensors added into each ventilated lobby to control the speed of the fans to ensure that when the doors on the escape route are closed that the opening force on the door does not exceed 100N as detailed in BS EN 12101-6.

Whether this worked or not, was adequate for the huge fire, or whether it might have failed due to loss of power is unclear so far. I would have thought active control systems should fail safe as in railway signalling.
 
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Strathclyder

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Completely & utterly horrific. My thoughts are with the bereaved families/friends of the victims.

R.I.P.
 

Blindtraveler

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Nowhere near enough to a Pacer :(
I am obviously unable to see pictures so forgive me asking but what sort of cladding is this involved here? As a resident of an older ans smaller tower block I have already sent a few questions to my councils housing dept following this.
 

ComUtoR

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It was 'plastic' Witnesses have reported that it was dripping down the building and the fire was climbing the building up the cladding.

Reports also stated that there was an external gas pipe that was also spreading the fire ?
 

AlterEgo

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Awful.

I have just been at an event at a roof garden in Kensington where you could still see the fire burning. Reading the accounts on the BBC was quite upsetting.
 

Cowley

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I dont like the idea of gas in multi story buildings like that, whilst it costs me more a month I feel safer with my electric.

I've heard reports on the radio saying variously, that gas was being fitted to some floors at the moment and that some of the lower floors now had it.
I've also heard that there were only alarms/smoke detectors fitted into the flats which seems surprising.
A resident on the radio earlier also said that the fire brigade had visited for checks on the building on Saturday and I'd have thought that Building Regs will have been signing off any work that has been done.
Obviously some of this information may be wrong and it was some very upset people that were being interviewed and it'll all come out with the investigation.
There's going to be some big changes happening to the way tower block safety is managed after this but what a dreadful thing to have happened to bring these changes forward.
 

Tetchytyke

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There's going to be some big changes happening to the way tower block safety is managed after this

There's going to have to be. Standard advice in tower block fires is to stay in your apartment and await the fire brigade. The building is supposed to compartmentalise the fire. Clearly that hasn't happened- for whatever reason- and people who followed the official advice will have died.

It's an absolutely terrible thing, I can't even begin to imagine what the people at the top of the building have gone through :(
 

jochta

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I've also heard that there were only alarms/smoke detectors fitted into the flats which seems surprising.

That would be standard as the fire should be contained in the one apartment. The smoke detector is then only needed to alert the residents of that apartment to evacuate. These blocks have a single stairway so putting a general fire alarm would cause a mass evacuation and serious problems. The advice if the fire is not in your apartment is to stay put and await instruction from the fire brigade who will evacuate areas as necessary.

Clearly something has gone seriously wrong with the containment of this fire.
 

Bodiddly

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Awful, awful tragedy. Very sad times for everybody involved. My heart goes out to everyone who has been affected by this terrible fire.
 

Barn

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. These blocks have a single stairway so putting a general fire alarm would cause a mass evacuation and serious problems.

Not least by obstructing firefighters coming up.

It seems to be the case that some buildings are just inherently dangerous and will need to be decommissioned if they can't be upgraded.
 

najaB

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I've heard reports on the radio saying variously, that gas was being fitted to some floors at the moment and that some of the lower floors now had it.
Interesting. I thought mains gas was still more or less verboten in high-rise buildings.
 
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